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HerbertKane178
How do your aquaintances react to challenges to their views? Or do you not challenge them on it?

Very defensively. In the past, whenever I questioned a particular claim the conversation would ultimately turn in an attempt to illustrate that I was the one with the problem for trying to analyze it rationally instead of feeling it with my heart. If you read Serge's books, particularly ' The Way It Is', an oft-repeated them is that your spirit (which Serge claims is separate to your soul and open to the 'pranic' influence of the Lords of Form) wants to control you and does not want you to reconnect with your soul. Thus any resistance you feel to the validity of the material you're is your spirit's resistance, and 'evidence' that the claims being made are true. This sort of 'logic' is indicative of counter arguments I heard in response to any critical questioning. As such I don't tend to engage anymore as it's a circular argument that can never be resolved.

You can hear the (January 2012) interview I referred to earlier here:
[www.fieryservice.com]

The claims I heard about Elvis were made in an interview with Gayle Cue, so it's possible they're in one of the earlier interviews found at the same page.

The best resource for the wilder claims Serge makes are his books, so if you're willing and able to acquire and read them I'd actually recommend doing so, though the ridiculously convoluted prose style makes getting through them
quite a chore. Most of the claims I listed above can be found in the books along with plenty of others, such as the historical existence of mermaids, Atlantis and Lemuria and so on. The claims about the specific reincarnations of Shakespeare and Hitler (the latter is in China, apparently) I only heard second-hand from students who claim to have heard Serge say it, therefore they accept it as fact.

One further point of note is that Serge has written (and I assume speaks) very critically about Capitalism as being an
exploitative and loveless system. Considering he profits enormously from his teachings, healing practices and
associated paraphernalia, it's odd that he doesn't suggest an alternative system that would be more loving and less
concerned with profit margins, especially when he's essentially claiming to be a conduit for the 'Divine Plan' that the 'Hierarchy of Ascended Masters' have for humanity.

A member named Walter1963, who had a lot of hard won background experience, wrote something about seminars.

If you decide to try reading any New Age person's books or listen to their tapes and YouTube presentations, the same warning might apply.

If you have feelings and cravings that you dont normally have -- get outta there.

[forum.culteducation.com]

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Even short(weekend or week long) but intense workshops can negatively affect a person's mental health.

I attended some years back a week long NLP course, at first I enjoyed it but about a month later I started having all sorts of nasty inter personal issues and bouts of helplessness, confusion, that persisted for a year, etc. Mind you the trainer was using all sorts of covert hypnosis during the 12 hour a day, week long course.

Another short course I took was a two day Sufi Meditation seminar which was not overtly cult like but used a lot of cult indoctrination techniques. Lots of chanting, staring into each other eyes for extended periods, weird breathing techniques that put people into estatic states, etc. Lots of folks didn't have a positive time either. From my research the teacher(Puran Bair) was sort of legit but evidently invented his own meditation sytem and borrowed heavily from 3HO. Which is really bad.

Here's the thing real Sufis don't use estatic states, they are generally frowned upon because students can develop a addiction.

My advice to folks is this; if you attend a seminar start feeling nauseous, weak or just don't like whats going on - Leave!

If you attend a seminar and everyone is getting some sort of emotional high at the same time and you're feeling like you've won the lottery - Leave.

Both are symptoms of maniupulation by the trainer.

In fairness, I want to state that everyone is different. Some quite honorable and innocent literature may affect people.

I was in a class studying a classic text of Mahayana Buddhism, The Diamond Sutra.

It put me to sleep each and every time. I'd conk right out at the table while taking notes.

A friend told me that if she had insomnia she found that reading mathamatical texts did the trick.

But again, if you get more than mere sleepiness, if you get a sort of restless, or atypical set of emotions or feel not quite yourself, take a break.

Walter1963 has a collection of posts here.

[forum.culteducation.com]

And so does another honored member of this message board community, The Anticult.

TAC wrote this about A Course in Miracles. Same thing can be done with Theosophy, whether its Alice Bailey or anyone else's version.

[forum.culteducation.com]

[forum.culteducation.com]

[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote
corboy
A member named Walter1963, who had a lot of hard won background experience, wrote something about seminars.

If you decide to try reading any New Age person's books or listen to their tapes and YouTube presentations, the same warning might apply.

If you have feelings and cravings that you dont normally have -- get outta there.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote


Even short(weekend or week long) but intense workshops can negatively affect a person's mental health.

I attended some years back a week long NLP course, at first I enjoyed it but about a month later I started having all sorts of nasty inter personal issues and bouts of helplessness, confusion, that persisted for a year, etc. Mind you the trainer was using all sorts of covert hypnosis during the 12 hour a day, week long course.

Another short course I took was a two day Sufi Meditation seminar which was not overtly cult like but used a lot of cult indoctrination techniques. Lots of chanting, staring into each other eyes for extended periods, weird breathing techniques that put people into estatic states, etc. Lots of folks didn't have a positive time either. From my research the teacher(Puran Bair) was sort of legit but evidently invented his own meditation sytem and borrowed heavily from 3HO. Which is really bad.

Here's the thing real Sufis don't use estatic states, they are generally frowned upon because students can develop a addiction.

My advice to folks is this; if you attend a seminar start feeling nauseous, weak or just don't like whats going on - Leave!

If you attend a seminar and everyone is getting some sort of emotional high at the same time and you're feeling like you've won the lottery - Leave.

Both are symptoms of maniupulation by the trainer.

That's very interesting, I've spoken to a few people now about the courses, and they all report the staring in to eyes thing, breathing thing etc, and the state of emotional high.

Anyone thinking of going to a UM course, BEWARE!!!

Serge conducts an exercise at some workshops where he 'allows' entities to enter people and then removes them. Apparently he has control over the ability of these beings to enter and manipulate other people, but he claims this subtle 'possession' by entities is something that happens to people all the time without them realizing it, so it's safe for him to allow it in a controlled environment.

The interviews at the link above all seem to be dead, so try here:
[study.universalmedicine.com.au]

We can hope this thread will be a hospitable place.

Prime directive is to protect discussions from trolls who would dare to shame and jeer and invalidate someone who is vulnerable and who is trying to express concerns here that would be shouted down if they tried to discuss this elsewhere.

And what makes this tough is some disruptors initially pretend to be helpful but will leave 'sting in the tail' posts.

Advice to newcomers. Do not tolerate any creepy or spooky Private Messages. (We call them PMs)

Never give a personal email address. When you register, study your profile and click 'hide' to ensure no one else can read it.

Mr Rick Ross, owner of this website, wants this to remain a protected space. Send any nasty or strange PMs to him at once.

You can reach him here:

[forum.culteducation.com]

Keep as much of the discussion as possible here, in public.

You are never required to respond to questions, whether on the message board or via PM. Again, if anyone sends you anything dodgy or cruel or threatening by PM, send it to Mr Ross immediately.

The most difficult predicament for persons who might come here is being in a state where one is not quite out and not quite in. Fallen between two stools. Where one has enough worries and doubts to dare come here and read this thread, but still feels protective of wonderful experiences one attributes to UM.

The medium here, where we are reading each others typing and cannot see each other face to face, or hear subtle voice inflections can make misunderstanding easy.

I am thinking of persons who might come here who are are troubled by doubts concerning the UM organization or leaders, yet attribute to UM experiences that felt wonderful and that made them feel better than before, perhaps gave relief to an underlying depression, a much needed surge of vitality..

One thing heard again and yet again, is 'But what you are describing isnt MY experience."

Experience doesnt equal truth. In one of our 12 Step programs a common reminder is feelings are not facts. Years ago, I was ill and had fevers of 104. Felt I was freezing to death. Was amazed that the clinical thermometer read 104 F. My brain was screwed up by all the chemicals released by my immune system to fight the infection. So though I felt as though I needed blankets and heat, what I really needed was to cool down. People who are drunk are often certain they are good to drive.

Some who say "But this was my experience"

Are apologists who not only defend their own experiences but who are prepared to bully, tyrannize and dump shame and invalidation on anyone who visits here expressing concerns or doubts about their group.

RR.com will not permit this kind of bullying.

Shame trolls have to be dealt with firmly and immediately, because they produce a schoolyard bullying atmosphere on this dicussion board, which is supposed to be a bully free space where persons with concerns can express doubts without being harassed.

Here is where matters become more delicate.

Many will sincerely alternate between having anguished doubt and then when a discussion goes uncomfortably deep, they feel unsafe may abruptly take refuge in what they experienced and defend UM. The anxiety is severe and people may not be aware of it consciously.

All that is asked here on RR.com is no matter how you feel, please dont dump on someone who wants to further explore his or her doubts. If you feel scared about this, feel free to take a break from the message board. When interested in exploring your own doubts, come back when ever you please.

But again, if going through a phase of recalling the good stuff you felt in UM, dont scold others who are here to discuss their doubts. It takes time to figure out where one stands and this venue is a setting where people are at quite different points in sorting matters out.

It is similar to quitting smoking. Some who quit are far enough along that htey can stand in the presence of other smokers and not feel any cravings. Others who are in early recovery may find it intolerable to see or smell cigarettes. Some may feel fine some days and other days may have difficulty coping with triggers.

All I can offer (sadly) is to insist on a few points.

Experiences, no matter how marvellous and transformative, can be produced through social manipulation.

See here about another group. Walter1963 is the source. THe entity promises enlightenment in one afternoon.

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Interesting, Genpo's 'Big Mind' Method is a variation of a old NLP method called a "Parts Party" and it's newer cousin "Core Transformation" but with a real sick twist, Genpo is actually creating another sub personality and have them halluncinate satori in the process.

Normally this doesn't work well, but when you have a big name like Wilber and cronies endorsing the method and a audience who believes the guy in front of them has the fast track to enlightenment, people are going fall for it hard.

Worse the more a student practices the method the more fragmented the person's personality will become.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Nearly all these programs will make you feel excited, feel better -- at first.

Can you pick a point where YOU can stop this process and get on with the rest of your life?

Do you have to keep going back to UM in order to keep on feeling better?

An Analogy

It might be analogous to stories told by persons recovering from drugs addiction. That first dose make them feel marvellous--partly because their neurotransmitters had not been depleted.

Not yet. Depleted neurotransmitters come later. And with time, the liver and in some cases the kidneys get more efficient at metabolizing the agent. Later, as damage sets in, the liver and kidneys sustain injury and yet more trouble happens.

But..not yet. One gets that ecstacy. One wants it again, especially after plopping back to Normie world and finding one's body is wrung dry and things look cruddy and mediocre.

But repeated exposure to the same drug caused tolerance to set in. One had the anxiety and expense of procuring more and more and yet more.

Finally one was taking heavy quantities not to feel better, but to keep from feeling anxious, ill and paranoid. One's body chemistry had been changed and depleted.

One went from that first ecstacy to being drained and trapped in a life one didnt want.

And recovering addicts have told me that they would glorify the scene as something romantically outlaw.

I met one man who, during his junkie days, had had somene tattoo a heroin syringe upon his forearm.

At the time I met him, he was poor and in a recovery community and said he was very sorry he had that tattoo because it would be a liability to him and he had to keep his sleeve down most of the time. He no longer was in the mindset where it had made sense to glorify the
quest for dope.

But...today addictive ecstacy can be produced through social engineering.

No need to scoot around, slink around early in the morning to buy white powder.

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corboy

Nearly all these programs will make you feel excited, feel better -- at first.

Can you pick a point where YOU can stop this process and get on with the rest of your life?

Do you have to keep going back to UM in order to keep on feeling better?

This is one of the troubling areas of UM for me. As Serge describes himself as 'a forever student', so are his followers. They need to keep going back to him because he will tell then they never have learnt enough not to. That's the sad thing here. If it was just a matter of do the course, read the book, get on with your life, there would not be so much of an issue around UM. But the 'cult of Serge' dictates they keep listening to his proclamations.

I think many people in UM would be uneasy posting here, even though the rules you state are clear and no one is out to ridicule anyone. I do hope they are reading though, and maybe giving to some thought to what's been written here. I've certainly learned a lot about UM from this site and others about how a group such as this operates and the warning signs to look for. It's sad in our modern world that so many seek happiness from such groups, but I think the alienation and isolation of modern society makes this inevitable. People just want something to make them feel better, and the traditional forms of worship have ceased to work for many folks. I think many humans feel the need for a form of worship and belonging to 'something bigger than themselves', it helps them operate. And having a leader to look up to, and perhaps worship, is natural for such people. Unfortunately, with cults and similar groups, this desire is subverted and corrupted. As you say, these programs make people feel better - at first - they are designed to do that. Once you're in, your on the hook, and that hook embeds deeper and deeper until the person you once were, you no longer are. You may think you are improving yourself, but to all around you, those who are your kin and your companions, you have become a stranger, lost within a group that really has no place in society and nothing beneficial to offer to the individual or the greater society at large.

Quote
HerbertKane178

Quote
corboy

Nearly all these programs will make you feel excited, feel better -- at first.

Can you pick a point where YOU can stop this process and get on with the rest of your life?

Do you have to keep going back to UM in order to keep on feeling better?

This is one of the troubling areas of UM for me. As Serge describes himself as 'a forever student', so are his followers. They need to keep going back to him because he will tell then they never have learnt enough not to. That's the sad thing here. If it was just a matter of do the course, read the book, get on with your life, there would not be so much of an issue around UM. But the 'cult of Serge' dictates they keep listening to his proclamations.

This is another point I wanted to make. Serge constantly shifts the goalposts, going so far as to 'expose' (in a playful manner of course) the fact that his followers - who have taken what he presents as truth - are in a state of 'illusion' for only being at a certain point in their understanding of his teachings, because the 'energy' has supposedly changed and those past teachings are no longer relevant or helpful. Benhayon constantly proclaims that he is not special, and that every person on the planet has the potential within them to connect to the Hierarchy and thus realize the divinity within them. Yet in twelve years of teaching, training and presenting this information, there doesn't seem to be one student who has made connection to the 'Hierarchy' and graduated to a level where they're able to present in the manner that Serge does, even though they've followed his teachings to the letter. If the 'Hierarchy' really exists then you'd think that having multiple messengers would be desirable in relaying this information to the rest of mankind, not just one who has copyright control over the 'Divine Plan' they allegedly have for humanity.

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This is another point I wanted to make. Serge constantly shifts the goalposts, going so far as to 'expose' (in a playful manner of course) the fact that his followers - who have taken what he presents as truth - are in a state of 'illusion' for only being at a certain point in their understanding of his teachings, because the 'energy' has supposedly changed and those past teachings are no longer relevant or helpful. Benhayon constantly proclaims that he is not special.

If Serge were not special -- why does he and not someone else get to state that the energy has changed, eh?

If play is genuine, one doesnt shift the goal posts.

Whoever gets to proclaim that

*Followers are in a state of 'illusion'

* That the 'energy has supposedly changed, thus necessitating a shift of the goal posts..

That person is is the Special person in the group.

The umpire.

Except that in an honest match of football or cricket, the umpire never shifts the goal posts in the midst of the game.

Whats going on here is 'not cricket'.

No doubt the alibi is that in metaphysical matters, conventional rules and guidelines no longer apply.

But..whoever gets to proclaim that questionable assertion -- that person is Top Dog Special Leader, no matter how playfully he or she announces the change in goal posts.

Again, in true play, one person does not arbitrarily change the goal posts in the middle of the game.

Its pretend play, not true play.

And in true play, all are participants and all agree to the rules. Rules are not changed in the middle of the game. No shifting of goal posts. One doesnt suddenly use an American football in the middle of a rugby game, for instance.

In true play there isnt one person (or an inner circle) person covertly operating by a different set of rules than the rest of the participants

And in true play, it is clear when the game begins

And it is clear and agreed upon when the game ends.

True play and genuine gaming relies on boundaries.

In bad relationships and badly run groups, boundaries break down and too often are written off as 'conventional' or 'unevolved.'

In true play is mutual. It is genuinely restorative for all concerned, because all are participants.

True play humanizes and, again, all know when the game begins and ends.

A game that never ends becomes prison.

If play becomes onesided, as in a cat playing with a captured mouse, its fun for the cat, but horrible for the mouse.

If one is trapped in something labelled as play but that is non mutual play, it may be disguised by bliss, but eventually one may sense something is not right.

Sometimes a small child will display anger and lust for power by hiding it as seeming playfulness. Such a child will hug too hard, kiss too hard.

One woman confessed that it too her much too long to understand that her older boy was intentionally hurting his younger siblings. The younger children would come crying to her, saying "He kissed me too hard!"

It looks like play but disguised the older boys lust for domination.

And in non mutual play, there is no real joy for the human who is doing the toying. There can be a gloating satisfaction but there is no empathy.

The lack of empathy is disguised by charm and seduction.

To all who have had their lives malevolently impacted by Universal Medicine,
I am both excited and filled with dread to find this forum. It is reassuring to know there are others who feel incredibly concerned by the group, but also very worrying to realise just how widespread their influence has, and could in future, be. Universal Medicine from my experience is a deeply sinister and hugely problematic group. My partner began to join the cult 10 years ago. This resulted finally in the break up of our relationship and I continue to be influenced by their bizarre belief systems, because my children (who spend half their lives with me and half with their mother) are being influenced by the UM belief system (e.g. extreme food habits, sleep habits, assosciated behaviour habits). I seek to expose their cult for what it is. My new partner is a London based journalist and we have been considering the possibility of publishing an article in the national press. I would be keen to hear your opinions.
Regards to all,
Matt