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corboy Date Added: 06/19/2002 Posts: 3512 Re: Goenka/ Vipassana

Vipassana is mistakenly taught as just a mere method. It arises straight from the world view of Thervedan Buddhism. And in Buddhadharma it is postulated that everything arises from a chain of causation. There is no Prime Mover, no Absolute/Atman and no Creator who existed before creation itself. Unfortunately, too many instructors will package vipassana as though it is 'just a method' because that gets more bodies in the room. With a good instructor who has honorable intentions and seeks only to support students on the patho of insight, with no desire for personal gain, vipassana retreats can be great. It is also of the utmost importance that persons doing the retreats be stable. No one should go off their prescription medications if these are needed. Persons who find more emotion surging up than they can handle should feel able to leave without feeling they have failed. I have done one ten day retreat of this type and can report how tender and open one does become. I can also report that one teacher tried to use the retreat to serve the needs of his own personality. If a leader has that kind of difficulty, any method, including vipassana, can be perverted into a means of serving the ego cravings of the instructor or worse, be used to recruit students to join some commercial venture that the leader hints to be useful. Am glad to report that in the Benedictine Catholic and Eastern Christian traditions there are also methods of meditation that are contemplative but that are grounded in the Nicene Creed that God is Trinity - a stance entirely alien to Buddhadharma, including the Theravedan Buddhism from which the vipassnana meditation originated.

Hi corboy, I was thinking of PMing you on this very subject, but having come across this post on another thread I guess there's no need to.

So here's my question can Vipassana/Mindfulness meditation leave someone "tender and open" if learned and practised on one's own?

I took a Vipassana class many years ago and can't remember anything about the class or the group offering it. (I stopped doing it shortly after because I didn't have the patience.) It's only in the last several weeks that I've started a Mindfulness practise on my own using books from the library for ideas.

I feel the need to protect myself after having been much too open in the past. This is why I'm now feeling cautious about any form of meditation or self-hypnosis, including the Silva Method or creative visualization. Is it safe to do any of these on my own?

Yes, practicing vipassana can leave one more tender and open.

However, this process is greatly accelerated if one does a retreat in a quiet setting, especially if in a group and out in the countryside.

I gave up doing this (and so did a friend of mine) because we both, independently concluded that we felt so raw afterward that it was almost disabling to return to the city.

My friend worried a great deal about lack of after care.

In extreme cases people can fantasize about favorite foods or activities that they have given up for the duration of the retreat and then get cravings that send them out the door and down the road to the nearest market.

One can have all kinds of fantasies about someone you see each day in the meditation group yet not know a thing about the person. This has been termed 'vipassana romance'.

One thing that happens a lot is that at the end of the retreat when one finally gets to talk with each other, people yak their heads off, phone numbers are exchanged, you feel like totally close buddies, rather like junior high school crushes.

One becomes so very sensitized that one can develop quite passionate crushes on people and on one's retreat leader.

That is why retreat leaders, whether its vipassana or any other discipline must NEVER exploit this to recruit meditators into their own therapy practices, or recruit them into some expensive commercial human potential or new age project where one has to buy one class or book or tape after another.

A good Buddhist retreat center should IMO never under any circumstances allow its retreat teachers to function as recruiters for commercial human potential ventures of any sort. Meditators coming out of retreats are just too tender and recruitable.

If you do a home practice, you can probably pace yourself - valuable if you have to be able to function at work and with your family.

Hi corboy,

Thanks for your feedback. I had been considering going away to meditation retreats, but after reading some of the posts on this site I'm thinking it might not be such a good idea. I don't like the idea of someone else deciding when I should have to get up to meditate or how often I can eat. We all have individual needs and if people aren't eating often enough or sleeping enough to meet their bodies' requirements, that could leave them vulnerable in many ways.

Speaking of being "tender and open," many years ago I went away for a week long retreat (it wasn't focused on meditation) and there was a lot of weird stuff going on. During some of the spiritual exercises a few of the women were clearly upset. Crying, wailing... I suspect they came from abusive pasts, and these poor women shouldn't have been there as buttons were being pushed. The really scary part: I seriously doubt there was anyone there qualified to help them.

Most of the attendees were women. Lots of sexual energy and drumming circles at night. I heard rumours that the reason a couple left the retreat before the week was up was because the guy wasn't being faithful to his partner. I pretty much kept to myself at night in my cabin until meeting a like minded person who also found a lot of what was going on to be over the top silliness.

The best part of that week turned out to be the times I spent alone. I'm an early morning riser and would head out to the woods to do yoga. Nothing like doing yoga being surrounded by these tall majestic trees with the sun overhead.

Because of what went on at that retreat, I'm now more careful. I was really tempted to try a meditation retreat; I love a day or weekend of silence but am coming to the conclusion that I'm better off doing it on my own.

Good Enough,

I really enjoy your posts. I, too, wish that I had known certain things so I would not have joined certain religions, but at the same time I learned alot from them and so am glad that I had been in them. Perhaps the feelings of betrayal were a bit too much.

Affirmations do work. I understand your not trusting them or their not working for you. I was severly depressed for 13 years, and none of the therapists I had been working with over the years could help me. I overheard one say to another doctor, "She is a tough case to crack." Then after 13 years, I read that "It is your thoughts that depress you and not the other way around,", and so the next day I created my own affirmation and repeated it silently all day long, and by the end of the day my depression had lifted. I was shocked. I continued to use it and in a month my depression was gone. I used other affirmations that I had created for my self-image, and they worked. That was 40 years ago, and I have not slipped into clinical depression since.

I love Dr. Andrew Newberg's book on brain waves and thoughts. Now he has a new one out: "Words Can Change Your Brain." Even Dr. David Burns uses thoughts to change how you feel about yourself and to get rid of depression. He is a psychiatrist who wrote, Mood Therapy.

I have used Self Hypnosis to get to sleep; I doesn't work for me now as I can't get into that state alone. I could use this book: "I can make you sleep" by Paul McKenna but I will investigate him first.

As far as meditation goes, well, it does have its dangers, but even Dr. Margaret Singer, PhD. who treated patients who had severe problems while meditating said that 20 minutes a day was safe if you are not in a cult. I meditated for 10 years with no problems, but I quit because I had done research on it and one never knows how you will react to it. Some people don't have problems for a number of years.

Drumming can stir up a lot of energy. Oooooh, yessss.

That, and people being loosened up enough to reveal intimate stuff and crying - that sounds like a gnarly retreat.

Note: if drumming went on at night, how would people get enough sleep so as to stay grounded? Even if unintentional, going short on sleep can loosen people's boundaries.

Any retreat should give full disclosure about what it will include.

People who prefer a silent time need to know whether it will be a 'dynamic' event and also know whether there will be activity at night, drumming or otherwise.

If you're told you have to trust the process and its better that you not know--get away.

Better yet, fact check the people running this circus. Who were their teachers, eh?

Hi grainne uaile, thank you for your kind words regarding my posts and for mentioning books you have found to be helpful.

I started exploring all this stuff to help me deal with insomnia, ongoing health issues and for boosting my mood when I'm feeling spent. Up to now doctors and alternative practitioners haven't been much help.

While my past work with affirmations didn't achieve the results I had hoped for, I still believe that whether we realize it or not we're affirming things all day long. The question is do we want to affirm things for or against us?

I don't believe in the LOA, but I do believe that how we talk to ourselves makes all the difference with how we handle things that come our way and effects all parts of our lives: our health, our jobs, our finances, our relationships...

I'm up and down about whether to continue with meditation. Having come across info on the ways it can become harmful, I often think about stopping. At the same time I started doing mindfulness meditation to help me stay in my body and to help me be more focused -- something I have difficulties doing because like most people my mind is all over the place, much like a popcorn popper. I also have long term fatigue issues and hope mini meditation sessions will help me pace myself and shorten my recovery times.

I'm not "married" to the idea of continuing with meditation. I find when I'm absorbed in a great film, a wonderful book or doing something creative, it's just as much a form of meditation and far more enjoyable.

Congratulations on your success with dealing with depression! There's a lot of depression in my family (myself included). If you feel comfortable, would you mind PMing me the affirmations you found to be helpful?

I hope this makes sense as I'm having a very low energy day.

Take care!

corboy, it was quite the retreat! I'm glad I listened to my inner guidance system and didn't become more involved because soon after it started I realized it wasn't a good fit for me. When you're in a group situation far away from home and don't know anyone, it's a bit awkward keeping your distance and going your own way, On the other hand, I fell in love with drumming and now own a beautiful African drum.

People need to ask questions before signing up for something like this. (I didn't as I was young, inexperienced and very open minded -- probably too much so.) As an introvert, who is also a morning person, rituals (especially at night) where you are expected to follow along without question with the rest of the group was bound to be a situation that wouldn't work for me.

Now when someone I know gushes about her latest stay at a retreat she visits frequently, I just smile and say little. I'm still open minded, but a lot more sceptical than I used to be.

And by the way, your use of the word "circus" was most fitting! With all the intense negative energy I encountered, I'm grateful I left with my sanity intact, that I wasn't one of the ones crying and wailing because they really were messing with our minds.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2012 05:44AM by good enough.