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Someone was discussing Tolle on an older Google listserve and mentioned something.
There is a discussion on the Google listserve that raise intersting points
[forum.culteducation.com]
[]'A cessation of mentation as a result of intense concentration _may_ be
a precursor to Awakening in some "accidental" enlightenment
experiences..... (Echart Tolle** or John Wren-Lewis'), or in some
very thorough systematic approaches (like the Theravada), but it is
not Awakening itself: or, put it this way, it isn't a _necessary_
precursor to Awakening.
(((Corboy note::the author generously names Eckhart Tolle's but ET's hunger for money and publicity calls his alleged enlightement into question so far as I am concerned Corboy),
'In fact, Awakening is a BREAK in any form of
samadhi-like concentration (taking "samadhi" in its lesser meaning -
for it can also mean the Result itself, in some systems). It's at
complete right angles to anything you've ever experienced or imagined.
(I say this based on your writings - you may be playing a game of some
sort, but I am responding to your words as they stand.)
"It's like this: if you fix your gaze, the saccades (the little
jerkings about) that your eyes constantly unconsciously make cease,
and because the visual system normally sees things by noticing
borders, edges and differences, the visual system "whites out".
"(Author turned aside to comment to discussion participants)This is taken advantage of in some Daoist practices, and some Dzogchen Longde practices, if I'm not mistaken - right Namdrol?)
***(Corboy note: very interesting as the Vajrayana practices aim at what is termed Clear Light.
If that CL is being produced by a mundane neurological glitch due to prolonged fixation of the eyes then this calls into question all the various white light experiences people and religous systems use to validate claims of enlightenment.)[/[/i]i]
"Since the whole mental system works in an analogous way, by noticing
differences, I believe something analogous may happen if the _whole
mental system_ is "frozen" in a concentrative state - it ceases to
experience anything at all. BUT THAT IS NOT AWAKENING.
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A person named Daniel was doing sitting meditation and reported this
"it happens that for a long time I lose awareness of everything -- of myself, of time, of my mind, of objects -- everything.
I sit and it feels like 10 minutes have passed, when in fact one hour or more have passed. Is this alright ?
Am I doing something wrong ? It is almost as if I fell in deep sleep, except that I don't think this is the case because I had my wife watching me to see if this was the case, which wasn't.
"Blogger LV said...
Daniel,
You're hitting a state of non-perception. If possible, you need to find an experienced meditation teacher to get you past this obstacle. Your experience sounds exactly like it:
"The second state was one I happened to hit one night when my concentration was extremely one-pointed, and so refined that it refused settle on or label even the most fleeting mental objects. I dropped into a state in which I lost all sense of the body, of any internal/external sounds, or of any thoughts or perceptions at all — although there was just enough tiny awareness to let me know, when I emerged, that I hadn't been asleep. I found that I could stay there for many hours, and yet time would pass very quickly. Two hours would seem like two minutes. I could also "program" myself to come out at a particular time.
After hitting this state several nights in a row, I told Ajaan Fuang about it, and his first question was, "Do you like it?" My answer was "No," because I felt a little groggy the first time I came out. "Good," he said. "As long as you don't like it, you're safe. Some people really like it and think it's nibbana or cessation. Actually, it's the state of non-perception (asaññi-bhava). It's not even right concentration, because there's no way you can investigate anything in there to gain any sort of discernment. But it does have other uses." He then told me of the time he had undergone kidney surgery and, not trusting the anesthesiologist, had put himself in that state for the duration of the operation.
In both these states of wrong concentration, the limited range of awareness was what made them wrong. If whole areas of your awareness are blocked off, how can you gain all-around insight? And as I've noticed in years since, people adept at blotting out large areas of awareness through powerful one-pointedness also tend to be psychologically adept at dissociation and denial. This is why Ajaan Fuang, following Ajaan Lee, taught a form of breath meditation that aimed at an all-around awareness of the breath energy throughout the body, playing with it to gain a sense of ease, and then calming it so that it wouldn't interfere with a clear vision of the subtle movements of the mind. This all-around awareness helped to eliminate the blind spots where ignorance likes to lurk."
[www.accesstoinsight.org]
"Another type of wrong concentration is one that a modern practice tradition, following DN 1, calls a state of non-perception (asaññi).. I
n this state, which is essentially a concentration of subtle aversion — the result of a strongly focused determination not to stay with any one object — everything seems to cease: the mind blanks out, with no perception of sights or sounds, or of one's own body or thoughts. There is just barely enough mindfulness to know that one hasn't fainted or fallen asleep.
One can stay there for long periods of time, and yet the experience will seem momentary. One can even determine beforehand when one will leave the state; but on emerging from it, one may feel somewhat dazed or drugged, a reaction caused by the intense aversive force of the concentration that induced the state to begin with.
There are other forms of wrong concentration, but a general test is that right concentration is a mindful, fully alert state.
Any state of stillness without clear mindfulness and alertness is wrong."
(If one dislikes the term 'wrong' one can substitute the term 'misleading' as in a map giving inaccurate directions. Corboy)
[www.accesstoinsight.org]
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Working with Bengali mentors, especially his close friend A. B. Ghose, Sir John
Woodroffe became the pseudonymous orientalist Arthur Avalon, famous for his studies at the beginning of the twentieth century. Best known for for The Serpent Power, the book which introduced 'Kundalini Yoga' to the West, to the western world, Avalon turned the image of Tantra around, from that of a a despised magical and orgiastic cult into a refined philosophy which greatly enhanced the prestige of Hindu thought to later generations of westerners.
This biographical study is in two parts. The first focuses on Woodroffe's social identity in Calcutta against the background of colonialism and nationalism - the context in which he 'was' Arthur Avalon. To a very unusual degree for someone with a high position under the empire, Woodroffe the British High Court Judge absorbed the world of the Bengali intellectuals of his time, among whom his popularity was widely attested. His admirers were attracted by his Indian nationalism, to which his tantric studies and supposed learning formed an important adjunct.
Woodroffe's friend Ghose, however, was the chief source of the textual knowledge in which the 'orientalist' scholar appeared to be deeply versed. The second part of this study assesses Woodroffe's own relationship to Sanskrit and to the texts, and highlights his very extensive but gifted use of secondary sources and the knowledge of Ghose and other Indian people.
It examines the apologetic themes by which he and his collaborators made Tantra first acceptable, then fashionable.
(These may have been the rhetorical strategies used by the Hindu Renaissance reformers--Corboy)
Partly because of his mysterious pseudonym, Woodroffe acquired a near legendary status for a time, and remains a fascinating figure. This book is written in a style that should appeal to the general reader as well as to students of Indian religions and early twentieth century Indian history, while being relevant to the ongoing debate about 'orientalism'.
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How many of those interested in the Tantrik dimension of Sanatana Dharma during the 1960s and 70's cut their teeth on those superb early 20th century translations and studies of 'Arthur Avalon' wondering all the while at that elusive Arthurian nom-de-plume? Certainly, compared with the horrible effusions of pop-tantric drivellings, 'new age' sex manuals and 'transgressive' crapulence of sorcery, witchcraft and occultism which crowd the shelves on this subject nowadays the works by 'Arthur Avalon' are quite exemplary in their crystalline clarity, offering really informed perspectives on the theory and practise of Shakta Tantra in the Hindu tradition - the introductory essays which preface the 'Mahanirvana Tantra' are unsurpassed in their brilliance as introductions to ther various aspects of tantrik philosophy and sadhana.
And the influence of 'Arthur Avalon's book 'The Serpent Power' upon the ideas of Baron Julius Evola, who translated texts from Woodroffe into Italian for inclusion in the journals 'Ur' and 'Krur' in the 1920s-30s, is not to be underestimated. Kathleen Taylor's biographical and critical study of Sir John Woodroffe comes then as a very welcome portrait of this remarkable man who was in so many ways a typical figure of his day and place, that is to say British colonial India of the Raj where he was a justice of the peace, and in others a decidedly unusual individual with a powerful and keen aesthetic and mystical sensibility.
The influence of his musician wife, the accomplished Ellen Woodroffe is considered and Woodroffe's early life in Edwardian England at Frensham Heights covered in detail. The involvement of Woodroffe's son James, who ended his days living in a caravan on the South Coast, adds some surprising angles on the great man's life in India and in England.
The 'Arthur Avalon' pseudonym would appear to have been coined for his partnership in literary matters with A. B. Ghose and the spiritual fervour with which Woodroffe venerated his Tantrik guru Sri Sivacandra is described, amid accounts of musical and artistic gatherings at the Woodroffe residence in Calcutta, where the great man delved into the mysterious secrets of Tantrika sadhana under the guidance of wise Bengali savants and sages: an interesting description of a chakra-puja attended by Woodroffe and Alexandra David-Neel is to be found here and the photographic plates of Sir John, dhoti-clad at the Konarak temple and in English tweeds at Oxford are especially interesting as they depict a man of an essentially introverted temperament who according to a friend had the demeanour of a melancholy gargoyle in ordinary life but the aspect of a gleeful goblin when excited to good humour.
What is not to be denied is that Woodroffe, transcending the 'theosophist' occultist mush of his period, penetrated very deeply into the mysterious depths of the tantrik facet of Hindu spirituality and that his texts done in collaboration with Ghose and inspired by Sivacandra offer some of the very best introductions to this vexed area, clouded by so many inane misconceptions even in our own day.
Sir John Woodroffe stated that in analogy to the intricate and beautiful symbolic-ritual universe of tantrika-sadhana (so profoundly intertwined with classical Indian aesthetics as Abhinavagupta demonstrated and Ananda K. Coomaraswamy expounded*)the West already possesses a corresponding path of esoterism (or 'eso-exoterism' as the metaphysician Frithjof Schuon would term it) in the formal observances of ceremonial worship within orthodox Catholic Christianity.
Accordingly, although there were rumours that even after his return to Oxford Sir John offered puja before an image of the Devi in his house, he in fact followed his wife Ellen in converting to the Roman Rite and ended his days within the fold of the Catholic Church as a practising Christian.
Apparently the ambience of the Woodroffe family was not a happy environment on their return from the Indian sojourn, which along with health problems added to Sir John's introverted gloom and native taciturnity. Kathleen Taylor has written a fascinating and much-needed portrait of this luminary in the field of Indian esoterism and Tantra-shastra. Very highly recommended.
(Corboy note: Julius Evolva, Commaraswamy and Schuon were all aggressive exponents of an ideology that originated in the West, 'traditionalism' which had the bias that there is a primordial, perennial wisdom that is not to be found in modern cultures but must be sought for in ancient uncorrupted traditions that offer valid initations. This ideology biased Coomaraswamy's work and he must be read cautiously and with awareness of his commitment to the traditionalist ideology. For more see Professor Mark Sedwick's Against the Modern World:Traditionalism and the Secret Intellectual History of the Twentieth Century, Oxford University Press.)
By meow tomcat - Published on Amazon.com
Format:Hardcover
Many academic studies, expecially in book length form, are difficult for the general reader to absorb because academic studies are sometimes excruciatingly specific and exact. Whereas the scholar has to quote Sir John Woodroffe (1865- 1936) and explain the context , most readers are content with a paraphrase or a general description. This work has over a thousand footnotes, which in academic circles is sometimes required, but with the addition of Sanskrit terms and Tantric references, this erudition may lose the general reader.
If the reader does not already know, Arthur Avalon was the pen name of Sir John Woodroffe and the author studies them separately as if they were two different people. This impressive research looks at Sir John Woodroffe in the context of his standing in British colonial society and with the Bengali intellectuals. The real authority behind Arthur Avalon's The Serpent Power and other works was Atal Bihari Ghose who was well versed in Sanskrit (whereas Arthur Avalon was not). Their working relationship is one of the highlights
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Tantra: Sex, Secrecy, Politics, and Power in the Study of ReligionLike Woodroffe, Vivekananda was a defender of Hindu culture against the West's
criticisms as well as a severe critic of the West. And he too developed a ...
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Sir John Woodroffe Tantra and Bengal - Kathleen Taylor - Google ...The first focuses on Woodroffe's social identity in Calcutta against the
background of ... Partly because of his mysterious pseudonym, Woodroffe
acquired a near ...
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Deodorized Tantra
Sex, Scandal, Secrecy, and Censorship in the Works of John Woodroffe and Swami Vivekananda
Chapter:
(p. 134 ) Chapter 4 Deodorized Tantra
Source:
Tantra
Author(s):
Hugh B. Urban
Publisher:
University of California Press
DOI:10.1525/california/9780520230620.003.0005
This chapter examines the various attempts, on the part of both Western and Indian authors, to deodorize, sanitize, or reform Tantra. The most famous of these is the eccentric Supreme Court judge and secret t¨¤ntrika (practitioner of Tantra), Sir John Woodroffe, who is regarded as the founding father of Tantric studies.
His legacy of reform and sanitization of Tantra would be mirrored and echoed in various ways by a great many Indian authors, such as Swami Vivekenanda and the disciples of Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa.
For both Woodroffe and Vivekananda, Tantra was something that was very much in need of censorship and reform¡ªeither (for the former) a moralizing sanitization, or else (for the latter) a form of suppression and denial. This chapter looks at sex, scandal, secrecy, and censorship in the works of Woodroffe and Vivekananda.
Keywords: Tantra, sex, scandal, secrecy, censorship, John Woodroffe, Swami Vivekananda, reform, sanitization, Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa
California Scholarship Online requires a subscription or purchase to access the full text of books within the service. Public users can however freely search the site and view the abstracts and keywords for each book and chapter.
Hugh Urban
Print publication date: 2003
Print ISBN-13: 9780520230620
Published to California Scholarship Online: May 2012
DOI: 10.1525/california/9780520230620.001.0001
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ContentsFRONT MATTER
Title Pages
Dedication
Illustrations
Preface and Acknowledgments
Abbreviations
Introduction
Chapter 1 The Golden Age of the Vedas and the Dark Age of K¨¡l¨©
Chapter 2 Sacrificing White Goats To the Goddess
Chapter 3 India's Darkest Heart
Chapter 4 Deodorized Tantra
Chapter 5 Religion for the Age of Darkness
Chapter 6 The Cult of Ecstasy
Conclusion
END MATTER
Bibliography
Index
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corboy
This text, Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand, records an historic 21- day series of teachings given by a great rinpoche in the Gelugpa lineage (same as that of the Dalai Lama)
[books.google.com]
Make sure to read pp 229-130 at the very least.
This advice is given many days into the retreat, so by that time the audience would be very receptive.
Contrast this with the reminder by Professor Cantor:
When Dharma is Fake-Turning Citizens into Peasants"
These gurus want us to surrender the ability to look at power objectively.
In the Vajrayana or Hindu mindset, Power = Divinity. If you have power or are accorded Tulku or Rinpoche status it means you have a fortunate rebirth, and there's no quarrelling with karma. There is no way to discuss whether power is derived legitimately or dishonestly.
Power IS.
.
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Fuck him...Whats so special about him anyway. He still has an ego, right?
Everyone has an ego. You could think about the ego as another form of gravity--it's a pull. The greater the sphere of influence, the greater the pull. Buddha's got an ego too.
"So what I am saying to you is dont let this Geshe's ego crush you. Even Buddha's ego can kill you if you dont keep a safe distance. Get too close and he will suck the life force out of you. pp 107-110 Turtle Feet by Nikoli Grozni
In his memoir In Turtle Feet, Grozni tells his friend Tsar aboutQuote
"The first day I arrived in India and looked around, I felt like everyone was on drugs. What the fuck was wrong with all these Westerners walking around like a bunch of brain-dead fairies? Then it hit me — they had given in. They hadn't survived the pull."
."Quote
"I desperately needed to talk to someone, but the thought of trying to convey my frustraton to Ani Dawa (his Tibetan tutor and sponsor for ordination) made me cringe. I knew what she would say--that I had to be respectful of older monks and teachers and never argue with them.
Of course there was Lobsang who would take my side no matter what, but the problem with him was that he was a lot more interested in talking about sex and girlfriends than about matters existential and metaphysical.
"Damien was also someone I could go to, assuming I was willing to submit myself to a one hour lecture on the importance of trusting your guru and the rest of the crap thats administered to the thoughtless in every ashram across India