Hi kkok4kk,

I strongly recommend you be in touch with an exit counselor; there are a number of them; do your research and you'll find someone who you feel will give you the best chance of getting through to your daughter.

It is frequently very difficult to get people out of cults, because the positive feelings elicited combined with the points of view purported by the group feel like the Truth. (capital "T")

I have no idea whether I will ever see my ex again - I hope so, but he, as far as I know, doesn't believe there is a problem. Being that your daughter is a new adherent, your significant history with her will help you, as it will have more influence with her than my shorter relationship did with my ex.

Best,



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2011 02:23AM by Questions_2.

Questions 2 _ I see a lot of similarity in this new age thinking- NLP, LEC, "the Secret" so I can see the susceptibility and attraction and why we could be susceptible to it. Spirituality is inherent in many systems- and sadly when some people get too much power they distort and corrupt this and prey on people like us. Especially when the dogma of these groups overlaps with some familiarity to other belief systems.

Yes, kk04kk- I do believe in God- the one of our individual understanding...and our individual freedom to determine what our understanding is. I believe there are many mainstream religions that we can choose if we wish to- that have given us good ways to relate to God, in ways we are not exploited. Unfortunately there are also those who falsely claim to know all and exploit it. I hope you and your family have a great Christmas, and that your daughter is able to experience her God out of the clutches of that group. It seems like your daughter is a searcher for the unknown, and has fallen for people who claim to know it,, and I hope she can get away from them.

I am currently looking up some things to distinguish what is standard and what is LEC. It seems LEC starts with a familiar idea- then takes it so far it is twisted. The concept of being responsible for what happens to you. This makes sense- ie if you don't study, then you are responsible for failing the test...and taking this to account for all events- random ones- is a step beyond...that is way too narcissistic a viewpoint for me. I see where one should not blame everyone for their circumstances, but in LEC, there is no right or wrong.. One should be "authentic" unless that includes questioning LEC..and it is OK to coerce and manipulate people into LEC. Not my kind of ethics.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2011 02:28AM by paperlane11.

I'll add this to the mix:

Self-hypnosis finally is the thing to be aware of. Self-hypnosis is pervasive as a technique in our culture - that includes the secret, landmark, nlp, religions, psychotherapy -

When you start to "re-train" how you react to things, through visualization, self-talk; essentially this is self-hypnosis.

Being aware of this to me is the key. I think in most cases, people don't need this kind of intervention - unless you have a major issue - clinical depression; anger management issues; pain, etc.

NLP gave me nothing except creating anxiety that I might self-talk to myself in an incorrect fashion, which would lead to a lack of success relating to [whichever topic] (oh and being more susceptible to engaging as a victim to covert Ericksonian-type hypnosis, because I'd been exposed to so much Ericksonian-like hypnosis by my NLP teacher in my teens - this is getting back to what I was saying about brain plasticity, and not being able to "undo" learning to ride a bicycle).

Any success I had was because of who I am; not related to how I was manipulating my thinking, behaviour, etc. I'm much better off since I became aware of and quit the unnecessary self-hypnosis, thank you.

Best,



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2011 02:59AM by Questions_2.

That's a fine line too. It's one thing to use this to overcome things like reluctance to study, fear of applying for a job, tolerating a difficult relative and so on-- and then changing your entire beliefs. Affirmations, prayer- all include some form of self talk. Where do you cross the line?

This is what has gotten me disturbed about the "therapy". It is one thing to get each of us to look at ourselves and what we are doing in the marriage instead of making one person the good guy and one the bad guy. It does take two.... but then I wonder at one point is my critical thinking getting twisted and manipulated? It is one thing to look at a situation from a different perspective, but another to corrupt one's thinking. This is where I began to look into this. Instead of leaving therapy with a sense of perspective, I came out feeling confused and disoriented about the situation.

Self talk may have it's use in a particular goal- weight loss, quitting smoking, and then it becomes a slippery slope..I am not sure where one crosses the line...

Questions 2- at what point did you sense you were going over the edge and how did you know?

brain plasticity, and not being able to "undo" learning to ride a bicycle).


Perhaps you could adhere to Corboy's school of healing, Questions, and never get on a bike again--in fact run the other way whenever you see a bike--might limit your options somewhat, but hey--you'd be safe, from marauding bicycles at least.



but another to corrupt one's thinking.

is that assuming you've ever had uncorrupted thinking, paperplane? A purist I see.

paperlane11, many of the points your brought up are complex, and will require some thought; I'll get back to you. Please remind me, if you've already told us, what the credentials of your therapist are.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2011 05:01PM by Questions_2.

Questions, Ericksonian hypnosis, at its best, is about storytelling and the conveying of a relevant message concealed within a pertinent story.
Everywhere you look there are stories with concealed messages--conversation, advertising, books, films, artworks, design objects, educational materials all carry meanings and messages.

Every person who stumbles across a story will take a personal message from that story, based on what is already in that persons memory banks--the story message becomes personalised.

All human communication contains stories and messages--there is no other point to communicating and certainly no other point to recieving communication.

If you trust yourself then there is no impediment to receiving the messages that are relevant to you alone. The decision about recieving the message is always yours--there is nothing to fear from stories in themselves--our stories are what make us unique human individuals.

Myself, I am very picky about who I tell details of my story to--since I trust myself but not necessarily the motives of others who are digging for my story.
I know what my story means to me so it presents no threat to me. No one else needs to know. Beware though of nosy parkers who try to twist the details from you as you never know to what purpose they might try to put those very personal details---and with disastrous results.

Look at the murdering ignoramus James Ray--who bought this knowledge for cash and used it only to produce more cash by applying it en masse and indiscriminately and his refusal to take responsibility for the dead customers he produced.

Look very closely at the person who wants your personal details--that is what you have to fear--that malevolent brain--not the Ericksonian hypnosis of stories. The stories, properly perceived, are in themselves neutral and harmless--it is what is then done with them by particular stupid humans that causes harm.

I love stories myself, always have. Saved my skin on many an occasion, remembering a pertinent message that I picked up somewhere from a story in one form or another.

Its all story if you read it right.

To whom it may concern:

Please stay on topic.

The topic of this thread is Landmark Education, not Ericksonian hypnosis or NLP.

If you want to discuss Ericksonian hypnosis or NLP start another thread with that topic heading.

Stoic,

I'm not saying I'm afraid of people telling stories - that's ridiculous. There is a difference between stories and Ericksonian hypnosis / hypnosis; it is recognizable, and it is very unlikely that I would be subject to that kind of coercion again, because I recognize the difference and yes, ask the person to stop or leave.

Paperlane,

I'm glad what I've said about self-hypnosis helped to clarify things for you, as it did for me when I came to understand it. How did I find out about it? Through therapy with a leading specialist in high-demand groups, who I sought out subsequent to realizing I'd been romantically involved with someone in a high-demand group. The other half of it - how does one know which self talk is OK, and which isn't - as I went through the process of asking myself this very same question, I came to the conclusion I don't need much of it, and now I'm pretty judicious about its use. You see, it wasn't the therapist suggesting I change my self talk - in fact, he never once did.

I think one very positive aspect of becoming aware of what self-hypnosis is, is that when you next encounter someone who suggests you change your self-talk, whether it be a therapist, romantic partner, church, a pop psych or new age person on TV, or in a book, in person, or whatever, you have the ability to step back and say, "Hey, wait a minute, this request that seems rather benign, really isn't all that benign. I really need to assess this thoroughly."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2011 12:20AM by Questions_2.

Thanks Questions- I would like to learn more and will see you on the new thread for hypnosis.