Oh man, AVOID any so-called 'therapist' who is shilling for Landmark!
That is outrageous.

But therapists, like psychologists and MD's are human, and they do stupid things sometimes.
For example, many MD's are the #1 target of financial swindlers, as they have money, and can be very naive.

Many psychologists are also very naive.
Some aren't of course.

But if a "therapist" cannot be challenged for shilling Landmark, that is outrageous.

All one has to tell them is to STOP selling Landmark. If they don't, then quit.

If any so-called "therapist" was shilling for their personal interests, they need to be fired.
There are some great therapists out there, and some terrible ones.

All a therapist has to be told is to stop selling Landmark. Period.
If they don't, they get fired, just like anyone else who can't do their job properly.

This is interesting information, thanks.

This is the first 12 step group I ever attended. They make announcements of upcoming recovery events, info and such. One of the members has passed out invitations to Landmark intro sessions in the group meetings. The group seems OK with this. From your info, I see that this is not in accordance with 12 step rules, otherwise people could solicit for their own personal interests as well... but there have been no other solicitations for other churches, religious groups or whatever..

I have also recently attended a different group that seems to adhere to the standard format, so from your info, I have decided to stick with this group and not return to the other one.

One thing that irks me is that people come to therapy, 12 steps, and so on, in a very vulnerable state. It's one thing to have a friend or acquaintance solicit you, or even someone come to the door- which may be annoying at worst. I know LEC has the "invite family and close friends info sessions". This is manipulative, as people are not as defensive with those most close to them. I wonder if they also encourage their grads to seek out opportunities to meet vulnerable people. Would a therapist get extra attention from the group for being a good solicitor? What brownie points do LEC grads get for bringing in new people?

If someone came to my front door selling LEC, I would turn them away immediately. In the context of therapy and a 12 step group, it is much harder to separate good and bad advice- and it is very possible that the LEC grads don't know the difference as well.

This however, is hazardous to the vulnerable.

Thanks.

I'd make you run if I could.

The problem with cults is that they teach their members to manipulate themselves. It's not like the "guru" is brainwashing everyone constantly - from what I understand the way it works is that new ways of thinking are encouraged - that's why it's called, "Thought Reform".

So why are you seeing someone who is an adherent to a thought reform program? That crap is like a virus - esp. in the context of the adherent being in a position of authority - she is going to be sharing her "ways of thinking".

I'd rather lose the person I love than dip into cultic thinking. You're playing with fire.

It's hazardous for the vulnerable with money. These people supposedly want to "help" others (that's part of the con), but they won't offer their services and materials for free to anyone on social assistance. It's all about the $$$.

For a therapist to be pushing this on a client, that's just wrong. That's abusing the client/therapist relationship (the trust that's been built) and taking advantage of people who are looking for help.

I went to the therapist for help with my marriage thinking it was just counseling. She identified some codependency issues and recommended I go to the 12 step group (the one with several LEC members in it). Not knowing anything about a 12 step group, I assumed it was just that.

I had no idea she was into LEC until she kept bringing it up and I looked it up on the internet. This stuff is never brought up up front, or presented in a clear matter. I thought at first it was marriage therapy skills. It was mixed into other marital therapy tools so there has been benefit to the counseling as well- which is why we kept going. This stuff is insidious, and when someone wants help- like I do- one is vulnerable. If I had known about LEC up front, I would have not gone. This stuff gets packaged into more acceptable venues like 12 steps and other therapy.

So I am the one who drank the Kool-Aid so to speak, but I will not do LEC. When she recently invited me to an intro session and I brought up my concerns about my research on LEC- it did not go over well. Her reaction really upset me. That's why I am here-- for the Kool Aid antidote.

Thanks to the info here, I am going to switch to a different and traditional 12 step group and also I am certainly looking at the therapist with a more critical eye after the info on this board.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/2011 05:18AM by paperlane11.

I have spent hours on this site reading previous posts. I want to thank "Nettie" if she is still out there for this thread- and also alert people to "pragmatist" as I ignored his posts.
[forum.culteducation.com]

I have discussed my concerns with my husband. My reaction to all this is so mixed. Personally I feel violated by LEC crap, and I believe the therapist is so ingrained with them that she truly believes she is helping us. She is skilled, my husband likes her, and we have had some good results- from the other techniques used. Fortunately my husband is a die hard skeptic who sees through what he considers the LEC kookiness and writes it off- and has no desire to attend anything related to LEC.

The more I read, the more I realize how much LEC vocabulary she uses... and this is concerning. One think I learned from reading this thread is the parts where people feel disoriented after a forum meeting. I noticed that I feel disoriented sometimes after our sessions.

I also saw the part about how LEC regards empathy and sympathy. At one of the 12 step meetings (the one with the LEC members) someone recently brought up a sad and tragic event. A comment later from someone else was that if they were truly far along with their "recovery", this would not have affected them. I got to thinking that if this is the goal of "recovery"- than anyone who could feel empathy or sympathy, or any sadness or guilt, or any dissatisfaction in their lives needed more recovery according to these people. They felt like grief or sadness was a defect. My next thought was that this is a bunch of crap. When a much loved family member died a while back, I genuinely grieved, cried a lot, and then eventually it got better. This was normal to me. I appreciated the sympathy and empathy from others, and I believe it is good for me to feel this for other people. I don't want to be "recovered" to to a non feeling zombie.

I have looked at some of the 12 step literature which says codependency is an incurable sickness that one must stay in meetings forever or return to the sick way of thinking. This stuff sounds rather scary to me- yes, I have some habits that need changing, but I have been a basically functioning person- don't have substance abuse, and a basically functional marriage to a good person- with communication issues. I don't want to believe that if I leave a 12 step program I am doomed. That sounds like a cult. I feel I have gotten some good out of the 12 step program, but also feel like it has been LEC infested- with ideology even if they don't openly promote LEC... as the more I read here, the more stuff I recognize being said.

Now I feel I have been mindf*cked and how sad because I truly sought out these people for help- I am changing 12 step groups but all the groups are attended by some of the same members so I hear some of this weirdness.

As to the therapist- I am keeping the next appt to see how she will handle my LEC protest and if she persists in trying to recruit us. I have certainly changed my outlook and have lost trust in her- which will inevitably end the relationship. If she can drop the recruitment and focus on our communication, perhaps it is worth it, but I am now very very skeptical.

I'd forget this psychobabble altogether myself and pick up a dictionary to look up the meaning of the words trust, honesty, personal integrity--you might find them helpful in your new 12 step group too--nothing like self-help--let your fingers do the walking.

Therapists can be "brainwashed" by Werner Erhard's Landmark Forum techniques, just like anyone else.
Of course this "therapist" probably believes she can help people.

Werner Erhard used to laugh at therapists, at how naive they were, and how gullible.

But the Landmark Forum is a nightmare.
Those of us who have known people who "get It" start to try to recruit you, over and over.
You tell them to stop, and they won't stop.
Pretty soon you have to tell them to stop Landmarking you, or to not talk to you.

But if any registered therapist brought up Landmark, a direct assertive response is the best.
Just don't pay for the hour to argue about Landmark!
Just tell them to stop the Landmarking, or they are fired. There are plenty of other therapists!

But here is the problem.
Then they will likely start COVERT Landmarking you, just changing the words.

Frankly, any therapist who has let themselves be brainwashed by Werner Erhard, is not worth seeing.
Landmark is truly awful, just read the hundreds of pages of articles.
[www.culteducation.com]

Yes, the idea that I am being recruited into LEC is really hard to face. Some of what she is doing is also found in other therapies. I have read much on rational emotional therapy, CBT, and also marital therapy. It is known that our experience from our family of origin do affect our responses in marriage. This ties in well with the LEC stuff on "stories" and "rackets". It is not a surprise that we have benefited from the theories LEC took and then repackaged. I also realize that the exposure to this stuff for one hour in a session is different than in the LGAT setting, but COVERT recruitment is not benign. It really does surprise me that a therapist who has also studied these things can buy into LEC, but perhaps that is why the hook is so cleverly packaged-to be familiar and useful in a twisted way?

The bigger issue is using therapy- which we so desperately needed- as a recruitment tool. We were just sitting ducks as we came in hurting and wishing for help and by doing things that work in a LEC package, the idea that we are being baited instead of helped is unfortunate. I suspect she does not know the difference between helping and getting someone into LEC- it's all the same to those in LEC.

I know I am preaching to the choir here- but I am also posting for anyone else who ends up in my shoes so they can also figure things out.
I am also reposting this from another member on another thread- for it explains why some LEC stuff can work--- but this is not because LEC has some secret. It's because LEC took something that works and repackaged it.

"Clearly the "stories" technology has been "borrowed" and repackaged from rational emotive behavior therapy (REBT) and cognitive behavior therapy(CBT)(see "Feeling Good" by Dr. Burns). I've had some experience with the latter, but instead of "stories" the psychological term is cognitions; essentially that we have an experience from which we have a mental interpretation of and an internal dialog about therefrom. This internal dialog or cognition seem to correlate directly to how we feel about the situation and ourselves. There is a synergistic relationship between emotion and cognition that can spiral downward into depression and related emotions or upward towards high self esteem and similar. It was CBT that I learned of the concept of subconscious beliefs; that our feelings and behaviors can be profoundly affected (effected? Never can remember which is which) by these subconscious beliefs. But what I learned is from CBT was how to become a better observer of my automatic responses to triggering situations. And thus I had some astonishing experiences that I would term epiphanies, insight, breakthroughs or a rose by another name. And I paid less than 7 bucks for the book, and all I had to do was a lot of writing and experiment with doing things alone versus with other people. It was a very enlightening experience that in a way I guess is really never over, for it seems that there is always something to learn about one's self. Unfortunately Landmark realizes this and uses it to perpetuate itself indefinitely with also minimal overhead and a work force that is almost entirely pro bono. Evil genius that. I guess what I'm trying to say in perhaps an overly verbose manner is that we can have insights or breakthroughs with just a book, a pencil and some paper. I thought it all sounded too simple and obvious to have any merit or power. I was very wrong, and I have benefited greatly. I concede that Landmark has the potential for benefit by virtue of the fact that it illegally uses the aforementioned psychological techniques; but it twists them by inserting its own self-serving cognitions into the all-too-ready-to-accept brain of the trainee. Anything that can be used for good can also be used for evil. Clearly it would take little imagination to subvert REBT or CBT to insert harmful cognitions into an individual thus making them think that Landmark has a monopoly on "insight" and that they must spend there life perpetually in yet again another advanced forum. When is enough ever enough for these forum junkies? I doubt that they even know themselves. Is it by design? I wouldn't be surprised in the least. Why sell something only once when you can turn each customer into a long-term source of revenue. Like I said: Evil genius."

Tsk. tsk, tsk.