I feel the need to interject here as well. I know I am saved because I am trusting in, and only in, the full and completed work of Christ on the cross and His resurrection and I believe every word of the Scriptures which told me about Christ and his work. The work of Jesus Christ is the necessary, sufficient and exclusive work for salvation that God has provided and accepts. Just the fact that I stated that explicitly means I am probably saved. If I say that to a man he should really just accept that I am saved. If, after I have told him that, and there is no overt evidence that I am unsaved, than it is very, very strange (at best) if that man continues to insist that he doesn't know that I am saved. Confession of my faith in the necessary and exclusive work of Christ on the cross is the first evidence of salvation in a man's life (this is from scripture). These people in ymbba are looking beyond scripture for their opinions of people's salvation. What more does a man want before he believes I am of Christ?

Aunt M and jimmy26...

You seem to have a very clear grasp of the fact the you need no man's affirmation of your salvation and that you stand before God alone in this matter.

It takes me back that Pastor in Missouri seems to have great admiration for this group in light of the fact that elders of the Church of Wells requires so much more "proof" than is necessary by the scriptures. I do not understand and may never understand that these very young men though age isn't really a factor) have the final word on a person's salvation. Furthermore, how does one have such admiration for people responsible for the harsh words and judgement of family? Does the Pastor in Missouri have great respect for the 50 page rant against a family that is posted on the website?

God is at work, there is no doubt. Regardless of my opinion or anyone's for that matter. Prayer and petition and the mighty hand of God is what is to be respected.

To the Pastor in Missouri: What is your son's name? I am suprised that they would be willing to talk to you because they barely talk to us much less a pastor, unless you agree with everything they say? How could you as a pastor, who brought up your son in the ways of the Lord be friendly to those who have taught him differently then from how you brought him up, since now your son says you and your wife are not saved? What is the name of the church you pastor?

To Senhome- Thank you for your heart felt reply.
Please do not misunderstand me. I am not at all suggesting that the testimonies of the first hand accounts presented here are false. Yet even if entirely true, to accept them as proof is the same as to receive one side of a story. If I were to use these testimonies as evidence, and do so biblically, I would have to contact the YMBBA ministries to have them attest to the same as well. Prov. 18:17 states, " He that is first in his own cause seemeth just; but his neighbor cometh and searcheth him."
There are no sides to take however, in judging the YMBBA ministry based on their own stated doctrines and teachings.
My concern lies in that this group is condemned as a cult based on generalities and not specific proof. If there is specific proof of eroneous doctrine being taught, please bring it forth.
I quote you-
["What is not shown to the public is the many and various messages gotten privately, over the phone or by email. I have gotten these messages from people at YMBBA. The caused me to be very disturbed with the doctrines held by the people in that group currently residing in Wells, Texas."]
Does this mean that the doctrine they share in private discussion conflicts with the doctrine they present on their website? Or do you mean that what they say in private causes you to be disturbed about the doctrines presented on their website? Which doctrines/teachings specifically?
Again I quote-
[ " YMBBA is (IMHO) a spiritual scam. I did diligently dig around to find facts. The facts I found are not published on the YMBBA website. They are not preached about in the videos available at the YMBBA website. They are facts ... not opinions. I heard them with my own ears (phone conversations) and I saw them with my own eyes (email messages). The scammer will do his best to keep the focus on the publicly available presentations. The scammer hopes to discredit all hearsay, so that it does not hinder the basis being presented publicly at the scammer's website. "]
Let us assume for the sake of discussion that you are correct. In assuming you are correct, I, the outsider, must receive from you, the insider, to gain knowledge or truth. I am given no means or grounds whereby I can judge for myself, but must depend on your judgement, and trust that you are accurate in your assessment. I am incapable of coming to knowledge or truth myself unless I also become initiated into the insiders like you. Does this sound familiar? This method of gathering truth is similar to the 10th warning sign of a dangerous group or leader- "The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible."
In other words, in order to assess this situation correctly I have take your word for it, or trust your opinion. You are telling me cannot judge for myself based on information that is publicly available. This gravely concerns me, as you will see with the following paragraphs.
You are accurate in saying that " 'opinions' are connected to what we feel as hurt". When emotions become envolved,it is difficult to have a clear and right perception, and truth is often stuffed quickly under thick opinion that has been clouded by our emotions. This is just as much true for myself, as for any one else. At times like these, it is important to step back and remember that it doesn't matter what I think; or what the YMBBA mininstry thinks, nor any one else. What matters is, what does God think?
The only way I will know what God thinks, is by going to His Word to see what it says on the matter, and that is why a careful examination of the doctrines of the YMBBA ministries in light of what the Bible says is in order. God's Word should be the very first criteria used in determining what is right and wrong, not my emotions. And that is why I start there.
I do care very much that people are hurting. This has been one one of the motivating factors of my examination of the YMBBA ministries. However, the pain is not merely a one way street. Those who have lost family members to this group are indeed hurting; along with those within the group who have suffered from broken relationships. I would never suggest that you should ignore the hurt. Nor do I believe that the grief which you bear daily has been imagined. It is very real.
But it is just as real that nearly everything I have read on this forum concerning the YMBBA ministries is judgment based on emotion rather than fact. If it is indeed fact, then it is not followed up with evidence that the reader might distinguish fact from feeling. That is all that I am trying to discern, and why I posted my first message.
I sense you and others have felt some form of attack from me, and have responded very defensively. There is no need, all I seek is proof.
You think it is odd that I request evidence backed by provable fact rather than opinion. What I find odd, is that a group of people who purport themselves to be Christians is accusing another group of people who purport themselves to be Christians that they are a cult. And yet, when asked to present solid evidence that shows where false doctrines are taught, there is very little. I am concerned, are we in danger of condemning a part of the body of Christ?

To Kjdean49-
My interest in the YMBBA ministries is to examine if they are indeed a cult based on Scripture. As far as I know I have never met any of its members, or people otherwise associated with this ministry. My connection with them is through the Spirit, to the extent that they are a part of the body of Christ. And to which, I have yet to find evidence belying otherwise.

Alight,
I understand that you empathize with the pain of families at home of this group, however the pain of broken relationships of the members of the church are solely the responsibility of the members themselves. They were the ones that chose to leave, in secret with no goodbyes. The family members on the other hand had no choice or say in the matter. I would take this into consideration when examining the pain felt by all. I also do not understand the term "cult based on scripture" that seems like an oxymoron! (or are you missing a comma there?)

to alightinadarkworld- So you have never met or spoken to any member of this group yet you defended them based on what you read on their website! Have you seen the latest Allstate commercial? I hate to break it to you, but just because its on the internet does not mean its true. Anyway, until you have actually spoken to or visited this group, your opinion lacks credibility. Perhaps you are just looking for an activity to help you pass the time. Shame on you. And just so there isn't any more confusion, the severing of relationships comes from within the group not from without. Once you have some first hand experience with this group then perhaps it would make sense for you to try to defend them, but until then...

Hi Alightinadarkplace; I'm not from or have had anything to do with this group.I was raised in a different group. So , just some outsiders viewpoints.
Firstly, you seem to be worried about the group being unfairly "rejected from the body of Christ".
But hasn't this group, from what others including Pastor in Missouri have said, already decided that they alone belong to the body of Christ and they are the sole arbitrators of who is saved?
If this is something that is true, will you feel the need to biblically call the YMBBA Church on this, or is it ok as long as it is the Church that rejects people from the Body?
To me ,it is always interesting to see patterns.One person rejected by a family member changing religious affiliation; that can happen.Lots of people reporting being rejected by their family members; this ( to me) becomes worrying. I thought biblically the Commandments were pretty clear about honoring thy father and thy mother. Or is this another thing that it is ok for the Church to do?
Someone said the Church allowed a member to publicly place criticism of their family on the web? ( I'd love to see the actual link, but if true, do you really feel that is in any way Christian behavior?)
"Love thy neighbor as thyself"; do you feel these are the fruits that this church has produced?
Most high demand religious groups are filled with good people who strongly believe. And who learn to follow another human being and do whatever they say.Being ordered to reject family because they aren't spiritual enough is pretty common too.
Then there is the little baby Faith.
Please correct me if this is a church with a similar name, but if this is the church where the little baby died, that has to be seen as one of the fruits of the Church.It appeared that the pastors take on it was "We did not do anything foolish..." and the baby is in Heaven now.
Jim Jones lead his congregation to Heaven also.And apparently he was a pretty charisimatic speaker who started out doing lots of good works.
Just some thoughts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2013 09:52PM by yasmin.

To pastor Dave.....since when did it become okay for exclusivity to reign in the church?...never mind all the other red flags...but we r called to be salt and light....why do churches give alter calls to the UNSAVED?...I have never heard of a solid Bible believing church turning people away from their doors...not allowing them in to worship...to hear the gospel....which we r commanded to spread....based on their assessment of that persons standing before God...Really? What extreme arrogance....Jesus fellowshipped...washed the feet of sinners...never turned anyone away....I can kind of see where u might want to stay on their good side...there is a lot at stake for u...but so is there for everyone on this forum...evil reigns when good men do nothing....surely you've seen and read...in all past postings...how this group operates...does any of that seem to fit with the true fruits of the spirit....would Jesus be acting in such a manner? Aside from the twisting of scripture....our loved one recently posted on facebook...that Jesus did not voluntarily go to the cross...just...take a look at all the red flags....isolation...living in a commune in middle of nowhere...believing they r virtually only ones saved...so I guess heaven will consist of only their little group...cmon...preaching sinless perfection...okaay....my Bible has a lot to say about that...oddly enough even my kjv.....tearing families apart...judging them...so as. Justify their own ungodly actions...and last ...but certainly not least...the death of a precious little one...so now..God no longer works thru doctors?....doesn't it worry u even a little..that one of your loved ones could be denied medical care that could result in harm..or even death?....had little faith been born in a hospital...her condition would have been caught and assessed immediately...being a former newborn...and infant nicu nurse...I know where of I speak...that baby died out of arrogance....ignorance...that incident alone should have shut them down....huge red flag when a group does not believe God can and does heal thru drs...medicine....tries to take those decisions ..and rights away from families..I'm a born again believer...was healed of stage 4 cancer...yes people prayed. Laid on hands..but God clearly shouted in my pain...led me to city of hope...and chemotherapy..was how God chose to work in my behalf...God cannot be put into a little communal box...these people do not have any inside track to the mercies and grace of God....there r doing great harm..need our prayers..our love...but not support...when they r following a voice of another.....beth

Yasmin- If you go to the groups website -thechurchofwells.com-you will be able to read all of the testimonies about the family members. Although, "testimony" probably isnt the proper term since the stories are not about how God has worked miracles in the life of the author but rather the authors external judgement of family members past actions. You make some very valid points, well said.

secondmama-I always enjoy reading your post. You ask valid, scripture based questions. As far as needing to be "determined to be saved", before being allowed into their 'church' service, they use (twist) the scripture about allowing leaven in. Like I told my son, "I don't want to be a member of your group, I just would like to attend church with you." That was a big fat no. The spirit of fear runs rampant is this group. Rather than trust in scripture that we are set free from the power of sin by the work of the Holy Spirit within us, they cut themselves off from the outside world as much as possible, they control the actions of the members, they do not participate in any activities outside of what the elders have decided is safe, they limit interactions with any persons that have been deemed oppositional, they strip the members (esp the women) of their individuality etc. We are called to live in the world, but not be of the world. But they are afraid to even be "in the world" Where is their power, where is their trust? We are commissioned to spread the good news (gospel) to the whole world, but if you are afraid to leave the 'nest' how can that happen? Just what are the elders so afraid of? And as far as spreading the "whole gospel." They seem to focus only on the fact that we are sinners in need of a savior, but then they seem to lose their way. They don't talk about how God so loves us and desires a relationship with us, that He provided the Way of reconciliation. He reached out to us, He made the first move to bring us back into a relationship with Him. Jesus is our Way of reconciliation. God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God (2Cor 5:21) God not only reached out to us but He also provided the faith needed for us to believe in, trust in and accept His son as the sacrifice for our sins, and then he places His Holy Spirit within us as a deposit of things to come. All good news!
So why the fear, why the need to control and manipulate? What is really going on in this group?
These are all questions that our Almighty God already knows the answer to and will reveal in His perfect timing. Until then, we need to pray for the truth to be known and the evil to be exposed. That day will come and we will say together "How Great is our God"