[makingitreal.wix.com]

To whom it may concern:

I have received new information, telling me that Dave McKay has been sighted in the United States. My report is that he was very recently spotted in California, in the Sacramento area. That he was spotted in the Sacramento area is not so surprising to me; after all, I believe that he and his consort were raised there as children.

The UK Jesus Christians have added another article.

[makingitreal.wix.com]

Dave Mckay's Attempted Censorship

Dave Mckay teaches "In fact, as a general rule, the worst leaders are usually the ones whose so called authority needs to be most protected from criticism. And the best leaders are the ones who are most tolerant of criticism." From Divine Authority, 1998, Strong Meat page 81.

We agree!

We have tried to express our criticisms of Dave's decisions, actions and accusations towards us privately as well as publically. Below are two examples of the attempts Dave has made to censor our criticisms that we are aware of. He has tried to censor us is by trying to ban our edits to the Jesus Christians Wikipedia page. Another way was when Sue criticised him on a forum where he had Sue's post promptly deleted by the administrators. There are probably other ways Dave has tried to censor us (like not allowing us to have any contact with other members of his community here in the UK) and teaching his followers to have nothing to do with us because he knows we have criticisms of what he has said and done to us.

At any time he can communicate directly with us via email, but he chooses not to. In fact, he refused to answer our last two emails to him.

Wikipedia

While we were members of the Jesus Christians led by Dave Mckay, we would often hear from Dave about "vandals" attacking the Jesus Christians wikipedia page and changing it from what Dave had written. Dave Mckay and Robin Dunn would monitor the page.

It wasn't until after we left Dave's community that we decided to do something about how ethnocentric the wikipedia page was.

Dave wrote the original wikipedia entry. You can read it for yourself here in the history section on March 9th...

[en.wikipedia.org]

On Dave's version the names:

Dave Mckay, Cherry Mckay and
Christine Mckay,

(their daughter) were the only Jesus Christians who were mentioned in the entire article. Dave's name was mentioned 15 times and Christine's only once.

Anytime Dave described a significant event in the history of the Jesus Christians he would refer to anyone involved (other than himself or his wife) as "Jesus Christian members" rather than mentioning names.

So Sue and another friend (Jinny the Squinny) started improving the article. They included historical accounts of more significant events in the history of the movement that Dave had not mentioned, as well as attributing the names of other members of the community who had been correctly reported in such events usually by the mainstream media. All of their edits were verifiable and referenced by reliable authoritative sources, such as reputable newspapers and documentary reports, with the exception of a few references coming from Dave's writings on his own webpage.

Dave complained on the wikipedia page that Sue was a "self professed disgruntled ex member", a "biased editor", "leading an attack on the original Jesus Christians" in an "attempt to claim leadership of the organisation that they were once members of."

This last accusation in particular is completely over the top and illustrates how threatened Dave is by anyone else altering the Jesus Christians Wikipedia page who isn't under his authority. Dave said "Wikipedia really does need to clean up this entire page, purging out the information added by these biased opponents..."

The principles of openess and non biased accuracy that Wikipedia are built on are good ones. Wikipedia allows anyone to edit entries, provided that their edits are not expressing a biased point of view and are verifiable with good references.

Dave claimed that our Jesus Christians UK website is "arguing that they are the true Jesus Christians now despite the fact that much of what they do is aimed at slandering Mckay and anyone loyal to him".

Slander? That's a pretty strong accusation without providing any evidence of how our criticisms are "slander"! Being "loyal" to Dave Mckay? We believe people should be loyal to the TRUTH, and not to their religious leaders.

Dave Mckay appears to be furious! He wrote: "Susan's vandalism through wikipedia is just a small portion of the numerous attempts she has made through the internet to discredit former Jesus Christian members. Someone with authority in Wikipedia needs to remove all of her edits and those of her partner, "Jinny the Squinny"."

So there you have it. Censorship reveals fear in those who use it. Jinny repeatedly asked Dave to state HOW our edits were not Wiki friendly, biased or unsubstantiated, and she received no response to her efforts to discuss what the disagreement was based on. None whatsoever.

How are we discrediting Jesus Christian (former) members? Our website actually supports and promotes a lot of what the Jesus Christians stand (stood) for. We are not trying to discredit members, but rather point out specific criticisms.


Dave claimes Sue added "a long list of alterations to the entry in Wikipedia in order to distort the history of the group to suit her own ends". He states adding these names is Susan "inserting stuff that exaggerates Susan's role"! Perhaps what Dave is really trying to say is that by inserting these names it has diminished (by default) Dave's importance in the previous versions he had written which focussed on himself.

The following names of members of the Jesus Christians were added to the wikipedia page in Sue and Jinny's improved version in connection with significant events or historical photographs. Surnames were only mentioned if they were mentioned in the cited reference material.

Rachel Sukamaran
Malcolm Wrest
Roland Gianstefani
Robin Dunn
Gary Mckay
Christine Mckay
Craig Hendry
Kevin Mckay
Sinni
Liz
Rachel
Roshini
Boyd and Sheri Ellery and their family
Darren and Donna Cooke
Ray Sippel
Josh
Tim
Kyri Sheridan
Francisco Gonzales
Paul Henry
Susan Gianstefani
Casey Crouch
Ash Falkingham
Betty Njoroge
Joseph Johnson
Reinhard Zeuner
James Montagu
Jayme Kronmiller

Soon after the edits were put up by Jinny, the page was "anonymously" reverted back to Dave's original page which mainly mentioned himself. And straight away Wikipedia reverted it back to Jinny's improved page. This happened twice. Dave then started complaining. Here are his complaints recorded on Wikipedia...

Below are some comments that someone with an Australian portable Telstra IP 1.126.213.54 address posted on the actual Wikipedia entry on July 14, 2013

"Susan Gianstefani now leads an attack on the original Jesus Christians, including a long list of alterations to the entry in Wikipedia in order to distort the history of the group to suit her own ends. The website she and her husband have started in the UK stands in opposition to the original Jesus christians, whom they now are committed to discrediting on the Internet. All alterations made by Susan Gianstefani, and her close personal friend "Jinny the Squinny" should be removed or disregarded on this entry, as biased individuals are not allowed to post edits, according to Wiki rules."

(Comment placed in the article after a reference to the Jesus Christians UK website by someone with an IP address by Telstra, Australia, which is Dave's ISP...)

"This website is run by Susan Gianstefani, a disgruntled ex-member of the Jesus Christians who regularly alters the Jesus Christian entry on Wikipedia to exaggerate her own importance in the history of the organisation."

"This, and many other entries on this page was contributed by Susan Gianstefani, a self-professed disgruntled ex-member of the Jesus Christians. She, along with a personal friend [Jinny the Squinny] alternates between arguing that the Jesus Christians no longer exist, arguing that they do exist but that they are totally controlled by Dave McKay, and arguing that they (Susan Gianstefani et al) are the true Jesus Christians now, despite the fact that much of what they do is aimed at slandering McKay and anyone loyal to him. Wikipedia really does need to clean up this entire page, purging out the information added by these biased opponents... OR allowing similar corrections to be made by people biased in favour of the Jesus Christians."

"The website is run by Susan and Roland Gianstefani, in an attempt to claim leadership of the organisation that they were once members of. Susan's vandalism through wikipedia is just a small portion of the numerous attempts she has made through the internet to discredit former Jesus Christian members. Someone with authority in Wikipedia needs to remove all of her edits and those of her partner, "Jinny the Squinny"."

By the way, Dave, how can we "claim leadership" of an organisation that according to your public announcement, has disbanded? Something just doesn't add up...

FURTHER REFERENCE:

[en.wikipedia.org]: ... Christians

Jesus Christians (posted by Dave Mckay)

I am concerned about vandalism on the Jesus Christians entry in Wiki. I don't know how to deal with it.
The history is that several years ago I requested help in trying to improve the credibility of the entry, stating that I have a personal interest in the group, as it's co-founder. I was immediately banned from making changes to the page, simply because I have a personal bias (which I was actually trying to find ways of overcoming). Anyway, fair enough.

However, at the moment, a disgruntled ex-member (Susan Gianstefani) and her friend (posting as Jinny the Squinny) are going through the entire article inserting stuff that exaggerates Susan's role, including advertising a website that they started in the U.K. under the name of the Jesus Christians.

Surprisingly, Susan and Jinny use their actual names when making changes, some of which have been undone by some apparently official Wiki editors.

However, the posts keep getting put back up. Obviously Wiki is no place for the likes of Susan and myself to carry on a debate. But for the good of the entry and the good of Wikipedia's reputation as well, I think that their posts should be treated the same as mine were when I was openly seeking ways to improve the credibility of the entry.
What can be done to get someone with a bit of clout in Wiki to clean up Susan and Jinny's alterations (and perhaps to be on guard against them just starting all over again under some other name)?
Dave McKay

Hi Dave. It's really not that surprising that Sue and I are using our names because we have nothing to hide. None of our major changes have been undone have been done by "official wiki editors" as there's nothing wrong with them. In fact many editors have been reverting back to our changes. I've been editing Wikipedia for years for pages on topics on which I have an interest, such as Woolwich, aviation disasters and the Auto Stacker, to name a few. Our edits are fine. All we've done is expand and properly reference the history section and update the lede. No-one making any changes or vandalising the page has made any entries on the Talk page to clarify what they think is incorrect. I'm finding it hard to believe you have the Wiki best interests at heart when you (or someone from your IP address) has been vandalising the page. Perhaps proper Wiki dispute/mediation procedures should be initiated. Jinnythesquinny (talk) 14:46, 15 July 2013 (UTC)


Biased edits (posted anonymously and replied to by Jinny)

Two editors (Sue Gianstefani and Jinnythesquinny) are biased editors. Sue is a former Jesus Christian with an axe to grind, and Jinny is a former host of the Jesus Christian website, and friend of Sue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.171.85.61 (talk) 21:52, 22 June 2013 (UTC)
The issue is not who we are - I previously declared my interest on this very Talk page some time ago. The question should be - are any of our edits showing bias, or aren't referenced, or unreadable? Having an interest in a topic does not preclude people from writing on a topic, far from it! Jinnythesquinny (talk) 07:36, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
It does seem that we need to get the tense used in the lede agreed on though! Jinnythesquinny (talk) 07:44, 23 June 2013 (UTC)
Regarding the tense in the opening statement being either "are" ore "were" the article itself states that the official Jesus Christians website is still being run by the founders, there is another website using the same name running in the UK, and there are three other known websites (with different names) publishing copies of the exact same material that is available on the official Jesus Christians website. Perhaps a compromise would be to state something along those lines, such as that there have been apparent claims that the group has officially disbanded, but that the movement still seems to be continuing in smaller groups under the same and different names. Sue Gianstefani (talk) 07:11, 25 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm thinking that the Jesus Christians, as the group people would have heard of, the "kidney cult" that openly evangelical, liked attention and sought publicity has officially disbanded and no longer exists. For that reason I think the tense should be past. But the clarification that as a movement, Dave McKay and the rump of the official JCs are still operating as a different thing, as well as the former JCs promoting similar messages independently like you are Sue, stops that being misleading. Jinnythesquinny (talk) 17:28, 30 June 2013 (UTC)
I'd like to propose something like this as the lede text:
Jesus Christians were a small radical Christian group that practiced communal living, did voluntary work and activism, and distributed Christian comics and books. The group has officially disbanded,[1] but the founders and several members and former members are continuing together and seperately to pursue the goals of the movement, as different groups.[2] [3][4][5][6] For example, a website called "Jesus Christians UK" is operated by former Jesus Christians based in the United Kingdom.[7]
Any thoughts? I remain convinced that the tense should be past as the noteworthy group here is the Jesus Christians as a single entity, which no longer officially exists. Jinnythesquinny (talk) 13:24, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Vandalism

It would be helpful if the person who feels the recent edits by Sue and I are unsuitable for a Wiki entry pointed out the errors in the page rather than making snarky remarks at the top of it, thus rendering the page *completely* unsuitable for a Wiki entry. All we've really done, if you compare the versions, is edit, expand and reference the history of the Jesus Christians, bring it up to date, and pondered here which tense is the best for the lede. What's the problem? Jinnythesquinny (talk) 10:18, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

_________________

McKay posting as Luke1433 on christianforums.com

[makingitreal.wix.com]

CHRISTIAN FORUMS

From Christian Forums (http://www.christianforums.com/t7724731-40/) post number 393 is Sue's and 396 is Dave's below. (Sue's reply was banned after Dave complained to the moderators that Sue was "flaming" him).

SUE's POST (Mustardseedfaith)

Also, regarding your last point, I would not agree that the Jesus Christians lack truth. I think there is a lot of truth in what they teach, more so than any other church or religious group I know of. There are other groups that have some aspects more together than the Jesus Christians, but overall, I think they are spot on with their teaching about living by faith and forsaking all and other points about obeying Jesus. But I would have to say that for myself personally, I would apply what Christ said about "Follow the truths of the pharisees, but not their hypocrisy". Take the good and reject the bad.

That is one of the major lessons I have learnt since I was asked to leave the JC's three years ago. When you put your faith in a fellowship, other Christian believers, or a human leader, in terms of really trusting and obeying what they say more than that still small voice in your conscience, that is when you lose out on really learning more from God and growing spiritually and moving in the direction he wants you to go. And everyone is at a different stage in their personal relationship with Christ, so arguing or trying to force people to act in a certain way till you're blue in the face doesn't help anyone accept truth.

DAVE'S RESPONSE
Originally Posted by Luke1433 View Post (Dave Mckay)

I think that any of us will be let down and disappointed by fellow believers over and over again. If we can keep from getting bitter, and move on with God, he is the one who can work out our differences, and teach both parties what it is that they need to learn.

God bless you, Sue, and your family.


MY REPLY WHICH WAS CENSORED and DELETED

Just read this Dave. Sounds nice on the surface, but how about an apology from you rather than a vague suggestion that I should "move on" from being "let down" by "fellow believers"? That would go a long way towards healing that "bitterness" you refer to every time I or any of the others criticise you or confront you with specific grievances for what you and others you lead have done.

Religious leaders are experts at sounding holy, because they have so much truth to quote to people. Which is why Jesus said what he did about them. But as Michael has been trying to say, you have to have real Christian love to go with your teaching. And love means apologising when you have wronged fellow believers and valuing relationships. Not being too proud to admit you are sinful or too concerned about your reputation as a "religious leader". Admitting your faults. If you can't do this, how can you be forgiven by those you have wronged? And how can you expect or even suggest that others put aside their anger at you for what you have done unless you repent and ask for forgiveness for specific things?

I and others have repeatedly tried to communicate with you privately about our grievances with you, but you will not admit you have done anything wrong, other than make very vague statements and then turn and claim we are "bitter" as a way of rejecting our grievances.

Jesus taught to go to your brother (or sister) privately to tell them their fault. (Matthew 19 etc) Then to call in 2 witnesses. Then to go to the whole "church". Then still if the person does not admit or apologise for their faults, to treat them as a pagan. I also feel that if Christians have gone through this process with those they disagree with (which we have tried to do so with you) we have a right to publically criticise those who claim to be Christian leaders for the things they have done that they refuse to apologise for. We will do that to you. And that is because you have set yourself up as a religious leader and teach that people should TRUST you in the same way people should trust God. You also teach people that "leaders" are not accountable to "followers". And therefore they should not confess their faults to followers.

I do not subscribe to your point of view.

You have disregarded our efforts to deal with our grievances with you privately, or with other Christians as witnesses. You WILL be made to give an account of what you have done, if not in this life (which I think is the preferred option), you will (like the rest of us) have to do so in the next.

END OF CENSORED POST.

To whom it may concern: David has reportedly been sighted in Sacramento area as recently as two weeks or so ago. Also, he has reportedly been posting from an IP address originating in/from the Sacramento area.

I personally believe that this information is "solid", so to say.

Jesus Christians cult members Paul and Ulrike appear in this video.

[www.youtube.com]

When quizzed about where they get the money to keep their camper van running Paul states they use money which they sometimes receive as 'donations' from people who are inspired by what they do. No mention of the McKay propaganda they promote to receive these 'donations'.

Cult freeganism is just another way for McKay to maximise profits.

Quote
Bryan Apollo
Jesus Christians cult members Paul and Ulrike appear in this video.

[www.youtube.com]

When quizzed about where they get the money to keep their camper van running Paul states they use money which they sometimes receive as 'donations' from people who are inspired by what they do. No mention of the McKay propaganda they promote to receive these 'donations'.

Cult freeganism is just another way for McKay to maximise profits.

Interviewer: Do you work at the moment?

Paul: Our work is the knowledge to tell other people what we know. That's our work but people don't consider it work because we don't get paid for it.

Still no mention of what knowledge he's passing on. Still no mention of the brain washing McKay propaganda he hands out in return for donations. Going by this documentary you would think the knowledge he passes on is freeganism. You would have no idea he's actually part of a religious cult who use every dirty trick in the book to get every last penny from loved ones.

Here's Alan, who was in the same Jesus Christians cult as Paul and Ulrike. He can tell you all about it.

[makingitreal.wix.com]

Kicked Out

By Alan June 2013

In February 2011, not long after the Jesus Christians led by Dave Mckay went underground, my wife and I were going through a divorce. With the services of our join solicitors we were negotiating the final settlement of our jointly owned assets, which only involved half a share in a housing association house.

My wife was not going to move out and sell up and her solicitor had told her that she could win 100% in a settlement court case over her claim. This was because I had moved out of the house two years earler and abandoned her to join the Jesus Christians. My solicitor told me I could win 100% of the claim, so I could see a long drawn out court battle and that legal beavers coming out the only real winners.

I wrote a letter to the entire Jesus Chrisitans led by Dave Mckay community giving my reasons for my reluctance to proceed along the lines Dave and other leaders were insisting on me taking, and that was to fight for a good share of the assets, instead of accepting the money my wife was offering me to settle out of court. It was the same day or the next day that the decision came back from Dave Mckay that if I wasn't going to comply and fight for more money that the local leaders should "Tell him to run back to his wife" and to kick me out. My local team were all in agreement with what Dave had said in his email, or if they weren't, they kept silent. So I had no choice but to comply with Dave or get out, as was the order of the day. So I left.

A little while after I was kicked out of the community I was given a vehicle to live in and some credit on some DVD's to distribute. I was sleeping on my sister's lounge room floor at the time. I have since returned the vehicle as I found it difficult to maintain when I found another place to live.

Nearly two months ago (May 2013) I wrote to the JCDM community asking if they are still of the same mind over what happened at the time I was kicked out.

I have not received a reply as yet. Alf did, by accident I presume, send copies of the discussion they had as a group over what to say in reply to my letter.

Dave has referred to me as "gutless Alan" and from what was said about me in the discussion that Alf accidently forwarded to me, the JCDM consider me to have not forsaken all, and that I was comitting the sin of loving money, which is why they felt right to kick me out.

Thread started by Dave McKAY posting as 'Luke1433'.

[www.christianforums.com]

Sic semper Tyrannus. (Does that name sound familiar, David?)

To whom it may concern: "Tyrannus" was David's "Bible name" during his time among the COG/Family. His consort's name was "Lebanon".