What led to your departure?

What were the circumstances?

Were you given financial assistance when you left the cult?

Was your departure at all related to your sales figures?

[jcs.xjcs.org]

"...I really do feel embarrassed to have been a part of it..."

JosDav, you have told me (by phone) all about your introduction to, and departure from, Dave McKay and his group.

My point is, that I do not blame you for a second for not wanting to discuss it publicly very much. You've been through a lot with those people.

You are very fortunate to be away from them, and it seems like you have psychologically distanced yourself from DM as well, that you do not have his voice in your head (so to speak).

If I can be of any service to you in the future, then do not hesitate to ask. You know how to find me.

Have a good summer. I wonder where the Gathering is this year? ;-) Peace!

To whom it may concern:

There are some excellent resources regarding professional counseling services readily available to people that leave high-demand groups.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Wellspring Retreat, which is a licensed mental health facility in Ohio, has specifically focused programs developed over the years and counseling services available. They also have historically offered assistanceor to those that might have some financial difficulty concerning fees. Wellspring has helped thousands of people over the past 25 years and particularly with supposedly bible-based groups called "cults".

Many of the professionals working to help former members were themselves once involved in groups called "cults".

I sincerely hope JosDav takes some time to view those resources. Wellspring certainly looks like a wonderful facility which may be of help.

All the best.

Apollo:

This thread is to discuss "Jesus Christians" the Dave McKay group.

If you wish to discuss another topic start a new thread.

Quote
rrmoderator
Some people just have the bad luck to run into someone like McKay.

I sure did. I did an internet search for truth seekers forum and then modified it to Jesus Christ forums and this Jesus Christians forum popped up. I had joined only to find that I was at odds with the moderator Dave. From the first post I was under heavy moderation except for the Introduction part of the forum. For some reason, it went straight to post there, but elsewhere... it had to be reviewed first. Now my log in is invalid and I can no longer read the "Members Read Only" forum part of the site.

I reckon with all that you guys are sharing, I can suspect the reason why: to not be so obvious in trying to push the "giving everything up to be His disciple" tactic. Now I understand why he was so angry with my taking Luke 14:33 in context to the parable mentioned earlier by Jesus in Luke 13:14-25 as not having anything to do with giving up everything in this life in order to be His disciple, but being willing to forsake all that you have when the Bridegroom comes for the bride; meaning the pre tribulational rapture event. I am not sure what Bible version Dave was using, but I can understand that mentality of giving everything up, but the King James Bible has it differently.

First: in order to see my application of what I believe Dave is using that Luke 14:33 out of context and by misapplication is the parable below.

Luke 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God. 16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: 17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. 18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. 19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. 20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. 21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. 22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. 24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.


Do note how those that were excusing themselves from attending were placing the cares of this life and their loved ones for not attending:

Then Jesus turned to the multitude, expounding on that parable to them some more.

Luke 14:25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

Now Dave was stuck on verse 25 above. Believers in Christ are to love one another, even our enemies, and so this requirement above was not really about being His disciple on earth, but the requirement on being His disciple to leave the earth when the Bridegroom comes for the bride at the pre tribulational rapture event which is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

He got angry, because it unravelled on how he was using verse 33 below from whatever version he was using that he would say as giving up everything in order to be His disciple.

Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Context is everything, but he had accused me of twisting what Jesus had said as if He did not mean that at all, and yet remains silent of verse 25 so as to side step how I was applying verse 33 to the parable of the king's supper to attend.

I never found out of it was a Bible version of Dave's paraphrasing that verse because my log in is not invalid.

I could link the site, but I don't want any one going over there if they are somehow still vulnerable to this guy.

Hopefully, God will cause the increase for those that have been victimized by this hard yoke and heavy burden of verse 33 and recognize His invitation here refutes anyone or any organization from using that to lord over other believers' lives to profit off of them.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

There is no condemnation to those that are rich. Look at this instruction from Paul to the rich that are believers.

1 Timothy 6:17 Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; 18 That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; 19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

There is nothing wrong about being rich: it is all about being willing to give it up when the Bridegroom comes for us because our true riches are in Heaven.

The Scriptures simply do not support a "peace at any price" or "hands off" position. False teachers like the McKays, and false doctrine destroy people spiritually.

Please consider the pastoral epistles where Paul calls out the false teachers by name.

Read about Hymaneus (sp?), Philetus (sp?), and Alexander (1 Timothy 1:20).

We can also look at 3 John where Paul calls out Diotrephes by name.

Then, of course, there is the entire book of Galatians in which Paul speaks directly to the false doctrines infiltrating the church there.

Jude 3 commands us to earnestly contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints. The context of the passage makes it clear that we are contending against false teachers. 2 Peter says very similar things.

1 Corinthians 11 says that some divisions are necessary so that those who are approved by God may become manifest from those who are not.

2 Cor. 11 also has very strong statements about false teachers.

Another great passage is Acts 20:28-31.

Then there is my personal favorite passage on the topic, Ephesians 5:11-12.

And what about 1 Corinthians 5, where Paul tells the church there to deliver the fornicator to Satan for the destruction of his flesh?

He's a false teacher and false prophet, he's a wolf among the sheep, he's a twenty-first century Diotrephes. What are the fruits (Galatians 5:22-23) of the McKays' ministry?

1Ti 3:1 ¶ This [is] a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Mar 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Luk 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

Since believers are being manipulated by false teachers, it is important to examine their teachings in light of the scripture in the King James Bible. Do read everything emphasis on a singular verse in context: even the whole chapter, leaning on your Good Shepherd, the Lord Jesus Christ, to understand His words from those that are misapplying them, whethor by design or by ignorance of their own.

The thing about giving to any church or any "christian" organization is this:

Matthew 6:1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

So how can a church or any organization have any knowledge of you giving or not? By making it known to them what you are giving: hence a signed check or a reigistered envelope of yours in giving: ect. It is not a sin on anyone part's to give in that manner, but as Jesus said: by doing it before men, these givers have already received their rewards.

Sometimes I wonder in this day and age if it is possible to give anonymously at all. I reckon a box with a slot at the back of a church where one can drop in monetary gifts anonymously may help believers to do as Jesus had taught, but the important thing is: it is the business of the believer as in between the giver and God and nobody else's business in what or if he gives.

Churches that prompts up tithing are forgetting that the church and the pastor from the pulpit shoud be looking to God to provide: as in raising up anonymous cheerful givers if they expect each member of their assembly to go home with that same faith in His providence.

If one reads 2 Corinthians 9th chapter, you will read on how Paul is careful that the church )as in those in charge of running the church and not per members of the congregation) were to have ready to give to the saints what the church had agreed upon in setting aside from the bounty collected from what the Lord has raised up from cheerful givers each weekly service. Paul did not want them to do a special collection arranged to provide for himself and the ministering saints abroad because that would give the appearance of "covetousness", seeking monetary gain directly from the members of the congregation.

2 Corinthians 9:1For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you: 2 For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many. 3 Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready: 4 Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting. 5 Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.

If one reads 2 Corinthians 9th chapter in context, Paul was saying that for the church to rely on God to raise up cheerful givers anonymously, they will "expereince" and come to know God's indescribeable gift of providing just what the church needs for Him to minister through that church.

Bible Gateway 2 Corinthians 9th Chapter

Most believers and churches take these verses below as referring to how the giver gives, but not so. This is about how God raises up cheerful givers to provide sufficiently for His ministry through that church.

2 Corinthians 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully. 7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:...

Tithing would make one give grudgingly, especially when times are tough and feeding the family is far more important than supporting some pastor with an exorbibant salary and pension plan. Tithing also implies the necessity to give, and thus the reason why tithing was never taught to the churches in the New Testament.

2 Corinthians 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: 9 (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever. 10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness;) 11 Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God. 12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God; 13 Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men; 14 And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you. 15 Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.

So all of this pressure to tithe and to give is not being done by faith in God to raise up cheerful givers to provide. Indeed, a giver cannot use the word "tithe" at all since it is a defined as a requirment to give which usually targets 10% of gross income as the church applies it, even though it is not scripturally supportive in applying it in that way for the NT churches to practise.

There is nothing wrong with giving, but christian churches and christian organizations are not knowing God's indescribeable gift when they stop relying on tithing and promises of giving by applying faith in God to raise up cheerful givers to provide just what the church needs in how God is ministering through that church at that time.

How pathetic and ridiculous it is, that Dave runs a "foum" in which only those who agree with him in all repsects are allowed to participate! What kind of "discussion" is that? About how many registered users are part of that forum, Enow?