Quote
Apollo
Not a brainwasher?

Try telling that to Sheila Johnson.

I think you should go and read the Johnson's thread on the Jesus Christians forum and then get back to me.

To the best of your recollection, David, please tell us: what was Joe like, how do you remember him from your days in the group? How would you describe his character and personality when you knew him?

First of all, i don't think we should scare mothers with children who are interested in them with stories of "brainwashing", especially with the JCs. Overall, I think that makes matters worse as it indirectly pins the mother against her son. From my own experience, it seems that the best thing a parent can do to ENSURE that their child enters a cult/NRM is to react strongly against it. This is of course one of the universal teachings of isolated groups such as the JCs, that the closer to the truth you are, the more the general public will complain and react against it.

In this case, Laura, having spent some time with the more recent version of the JCs, I hope you can take my word as credible. As far as my opinions of the JCs: they are well-intentioned and highly idealistic albeit a very isolated group. this isolation can cause problems obviously, example - groupthink, distrust of outside world, amongst others. But they are nice people who only seem off-kilter at times and may rub people the wrong way BECAUSE of their idealism. I ended up getting close to them in many ways and were great people to hang out with when not in "work" mode if you get my drift. And Dave isn't my favorite guy, but that's all I'll say for now. Overall, there were good things I experienced, and some bad. But I'm not emotionally scarred and i live my life pretty normally now-a-days.

About Joe: Joe was a very bright young man when I met him and continued to be a bright young man after I left. He joined for probably the same reasons I did: because the JCs were a fresh new perspective on the old tired church doctrine we grew up with, and because the sense of community seemed stronger than previously in our lives. I think the media painted Joe as being a victim completely under Dave's control when in reality he chose to join the group because of something missing from his own life. Maybe the stress of being the successful kid was too much for him. Maybe he started to get disillusioned with the way society as a whole views success. Laura, find out what's missing about your child's life that would convince him to leave it in the first place. And listen to him, don't criticize his interest but give suggestions. It just shows that he's willing to question things in the first place.

JosDav: have you ever heard of a man named Bart Wilcox? Have you ever watched The Wave?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/07/2012 07:00AM by zeuszor.

JosDav:

"find out what's missing about your child's life that would convince him to leave it in the first place"?

No.

It isn't meaningful to blame a parent for Dave McKay.

No one deserves someone in their life like McKay in my opinion.

Some people just have the bad luck to run into someone like McKay.

It seems to me that McKay is something like a con man and poor Joe Johnson was a teenager and simply not equipped to deal with him.

Groups called "cults" may seem like "a fresh new perspective", but in fact they are really a rather an old con game, i.e. usuallycontrived by a sociopath who exploits people.

The isolation you mention is a necessary tool to cut people off from any outside frame of reference and/or accurate feedback. It's a control technique.

See [www.culteducation.com]

This Encyclopedia of Sociology excerpt explains the process of coercive persuasion often used by leaders of groups called "cults".

See [www.culteducation.com]

This is an explanation of "coping strategies", which can be useful when dealing with cult members.

I agree that families shouldn't be needlessly confrontational, but that doesn't mean they should simply give up and let the group leader exploit someone without developing a strategy to hopefully respond and help the person involved regain their independence and leave the group.

See [www.culteducation.com]

This is a collection of articles concerning recovery from groups called "cults". There are some common issues that most ex-members struggle with after leaving a high demand group.

I would like to get on answering the points you have brought up moderator, but maybe when I have more time. Mostly, i think it comes down to the psychiatric vs sociological perspective though. Being a sociology student, I feel that there are some issues not dealt with on the cult-busting and deprogrammer side. Either way, that's not to say Dave doesn't use manipulative tactics for his "victims" but in viewing the size of his membership, I really don't think he's that good at even that. As far as Joe not being able to deal with his "con" game, perhaps you're right. I can see how Dave is much more of an entrepreneur trying to sell his product than he is trustworthy religious figure. And cons can be a profitable tactic (see Bainbridge and Stark 1980, "cult formation").

I do think however that I and Joe and the rest of the young crew took the first step to being "conned", because we were missing something. And when I say we were missing something, I don't mean to say that it is our parent's fault. In fact, studies have been done that show that adolescents are more influenced by their peers than by their parents. So maybe it was a peer issue, maybe something else. And I do think that the JCs do have novel ideas. At least for this century. In all honesty though, they may need loosen up some views on of some parts of the bible if they want to be taken more seriously. They're kind of like the libertarian party to the reps and dems.

JosDav:

You are being too hard on yourself.

In my opinion, even though McKay is a very small time "cult leader", he is still what he is, a manipulative individual that preys upon people. He is not that successful when compared to someone like L. Ron Hubbard, Maharishi or Werner Erhard, but it's certainly not for lack of effort.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Lifton's three criteria and observation about "cult formation" form the nucleus of a definition. Lifton is a pyschiatrist.

The previous link regarding "coevercie perusasion" was from a sociological perspective. The author is a sociologist.

No one deserves to be preyed upon by a con man.

All con men exploit the vulnerabilities of their mark, that part of their system. Whatever cracks or weaknesses can be exploited. That's a basis for much of the manipulation.

What McKay does cannot work without some degree of his victims' own complicity. Nobody put the hypno-beam on JJ and mesmerized him.

It's a bilocational relationship like that, between cult leader and cult member/victim.

This is not to blame the victim(s) or their families, either. Not does it make DM any less despicable.

Congratulations Brian!

Hi JosDav, I enjoyed your perspective about the group and I agree something is missing in most of our lives but there are other ways to fill that void. Information is power and young people like you and Joe were very naive to Dave's devices.

Quote
Adrian
Congratulations Brian!

Thank you, Adrian.

It's all about Milgram (obedience to authority)-Asch (conformity, the power of the situation) and-Zimbardo (totalistic institutions/groups, and the power of roles within them).

Milgram-Asch-Zimbardo, the Trinity of the world of social psych. Remember that.