In other words, you cannot rescue somebody who does not feel like they need to be rescued. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. Same principle.

zeuszor:

I have done about 500 interventions over the past 30 years.

Those cliches simply don't apply in cult intervention work.

Just completed quite a few interventions in recent months within the US and overseas.

None of the people involved in destructive cults felt they needed to be"rescued."

Nevertheless the overwhelming majority of the interventions were successful.

You don't seem to have a very good understanding of cult intervention work.

See [www.cultnews.com]

It's not a cliche, it's reality. One cannot change until one realizes that one needs to change. And to the contrary: I actually do have a pretty good understandng of cult intervention work, and have been through such intervention counseling myself. I was at MeadowHaven for fifty-one weeks and have been counseled by some of the best. I understand it from the outside, as well as from the inside. I am three months away from having a degree in psychology. Anybody I was in therapy with will tell ya that they could not have changed until the timing was right.

So, what are your credentials as a mental-health professional, Mr. Ross?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2012 07:42AM by zeuszor.

Zeuszor; what type of psych degree are you close to finishing?( ie Bachelors, Masters, PhD?)
Psychology is a very interesting area of study. Actually though, the idea that one needs to "hit rock bottom" before one can change is a theory that was used by some substance abuse counseling approaches, in particular AA. In reality though, empirical evidence seems to suggest this is not a fact and "rock bottom experiences " are not actually required for change.
Many people who are court ordered to do substance abuse prevention classes, dispite having no initial desire to do so, end up doing quite well/successfully staying clean in the various programs.
There is not a whole lot of study on approaches to people in cultic groups.Steve Hassan for example , who has I believe a Masters in Psych? and i think has a strategic intervention approach?? seems to also agree with Mr Ross that presenting people with information can be helpful.
Mr Hassan also talks about the fact that in some high demand groups there can be internal support for the idea that outsiders are the devil, are evil, are tainted. For some people, simple things like a kind act from a stranger have been the catalyst to get them thinking about the group.
For some people, change is a sudden thing; for others small events over time can add up to make a difference.And plenty of people are often not aware of facts that are hidden about their group.When they are given information from a source they percieve as honest, it can be helpful.

Disclaimer regarding Steve Hassan

The Ross Institute of New Jersey/May 2013

See [www.culteducation.com]

The inclusion of news articles within the Ross Institute of New Jersey (RI) archives, which mention and/or quote Steven Hassan, in no way suggests that RI recommends Mr. Hassan or recognizes him in any way.

News articles that mention Steve Hassan have been archived for historical purposes only due to the information they contain about controversial groups, movements and/or leaders.

RI does not recommend Steven Hassan.

RI has received serious complaints about Steve Hassan concerning his fees. Mr. Hassan does not publicly disclose his fee schedule, but according to complaints Steve Hassan has charged fees varying from $250.00 per hour or $2,500.00 per day to $500.00 per hour or $5,000.00 per day. This does not include Mr. Hassan's expenses, which according to complaints can be quite substantial.

Steven Hassan has charged families tens of thousands of dollars and provided questionable results. One recent complaint cited total fees of almost $50,000.00. But this very expensive intervention effort ended in failure.

Dr. Cathleen Mann, who holds a doctorate in psychology and has been a licensed counselor in the state of Colorado since 1994 points out, "Nowhere does Hassan provide a base rate and/or any type or accepted statistical method defining his results..."

Steve Hassan has at times suggested to potential clients that they purchase a preliminary report based upon what he calls his "BITE" model. These "BITE reports" can potentially cost thousands of dollars.

See [corp.sec.state.ma.us]

Steve Hassan runs a for-profit corporation called "Freedom of Mind." Mr. Hassan is listed as the corporate agent for that business as well as its president and treasurer.

RI does not recommend "Freedom of Mind" as a resource.

RI also does not list or recommend Steve Hassan's books.

To better understand why Mr. Hassan's books are not recommended by RI read this detailed review of his most recently self-published book titled "Freedom of Mind."

See [www.cultnews.com]

Steve Hassan's cult intervention methodology has historically raised concerns since its inception. The book "Recovery from Cults" (W.W. Norton & Co. pp. 174-175) edited by Dr. Michael Langone states the following:

"Calling his approach 'strategic intervention [sic] therapy,' Hassan (1988) stresses that, although he too tries to communicate a body of information to cultists and to help them think independently, he also does formal counseling. As with many humanistic counseling approaches, Hassan’s runs the risk of imposing clarity, however subtly, on the framework’s foundational ambiguity and thereby manipulating the client."

RI has also learned that Mr. Hassan has had dual-relationships with his counseling clients. That is, clients seeing Mr. Hassan for counseling may also do professional cult intervention work with him.

Professionals in the field of cultic studies have also expressed concerns regarding Steven Hassan's use of hypnosis and Neuro-linguistic programming (NLP).

Based upon complaints and the concerns expressed about Mr. Hassan RI does not recommend Steve Hassan for counseling, intervention work or any other form of professional consultation.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/2013 09:22PM by rrmoderator.

Hi yasmin. Soon, God willing, I'll finish my undergrad (Bachelor's) in Psychology. As well, I am a double-major in Sociology.

Indeed, I am familiar with Mr. Hassan and his work: the SIA, the BITE model, etc. And yes, he holds a Master's (in counseling psychology, I believe).

Tajfel and Turner (1979) wrote a lot about "ingroup favoritism and the illusion of outgroup homogeneity." Their work with Social Identity Theory is some of my favorite in the world of social psych.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2012 08:19AM by zeuszor.

zeuszor:

Congratulations on your coming degree.

But your experience concerning cult intervention remains quite limited.

Meadowhaven is not a licensed mental health facilty.

No, I am not mental health professional.

But I was a staff member at a social service agency and have worked closely with many psychiatrists, psychologists and other mental health professionals over the years through my intervention and consulting work. One of my most recent cases included working with both a psychiatrist and psychologist. My work has also included working within licensed mental health facilities assisting doctors regarding cult cases.

I have been qualified and accepted as an expert witness concerning cults and cult dynamics in the courts of ten states, including US Federal Court through what is called a "Daubert hearing." I have never failed to be qualified and my testimony has never failed to be accepted.

What you should know is cult interventions are typically a surprise, much like substance abuse interventions. The person that is the focus of the intervention is not told in advance that an intervention will take place. And typically at the time they are committed to the group and not interested in change. There are considerations regarding "timing", but not in the sense you have posted, i.e. when "one realizes that one needs to change".

Take the time to read the paper on intervention previously linked so that you can better understand how cult interventions are typically done.

You should also read excerpts from "Snapping" by Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman to understand the history and development of cult intervention work. Conway and Siegelman approach the subject as communication experts, explaining the way cults manipulate communication and the environment to control people.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Pyshcologist Margaret Singer also wrote about "deprogramming", which is the early term she used to describe cult intervention work. Read "Cults in Our Midst".

Again, you don't seem to know much about cult intervention work.

And it is unwise for someone without meaningful experience to be dispensing advice here.

Someone might read your posts and be mislead by your opinions.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2012 05:30AM by rrmoderator.

I receive you, Rick, and thank you. Have you ever done an intervention, and the person chose to remain with the group anyway? I am sure you've seen it happen before. How do you account for this?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2012 08:27AM by zeuszor.

Quote
rrmoderator
Again, you don't seem to know much about cult intervention work.

Well, admittedly this is not my area of expertise. I have been exit-counseled, but never the counselor. I am a sociologist, social psychologist, and cult-ed researcher/writer and counseling psych is not my thing, so to speak. I'd like to go to grad school in Canada and study under Dr. Kent someday. That'd be exiting.

zeuszor:

Steve Hassan's methods (SIA, the BITE model) have been crtiticized by psychologist and court expert Cathleen Mann and Monica Pignotti, PhD. Both recognized professionals in the field of cultic studies once worked closely with Steve, but disassociated themselves from him due to ethical concerns.

And though Steve Hassan does have a masters degree, it is my understanding that he has only once attempted to testify as a court expert witness and his testimony was largely discounted and dismissed by the judge.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/2012 08:35AM by rrmoderator.

Have you ever done an intervention, and the person chose to remain with the group anyway? I am sure you've seen it happen before. How do you account for this?