After reading a bunch of threads here on the topic, I thought I would post.

First off I am NOT a member of any 4th way group nor do I condone joining one of any kind. THAT must be clear.

I was a member of a Sufi group for several years that had many long time Gurdjeffians there, and have studied Gurdjieff texts for many years.

I am highly sympathetic to those that in good faith searched and were hurt by that search.

Some observations as they apply to the 4th way and perhaps in general to those searching.

I consider groups like Fellowship of Friends, the Gans & Horn groups of the 70's, as using the 4th way as a basis to exploit people. Very sad, and dangerous!...

I do consider the Gurdjieff Foundation and some Bennett/Nyland "offshoots" as "legitimate" "work" groups". This does not mean I support them.

In answering a few points on the 4th way.

Friends say " they are like robots, no emotions".....don't worry they are trying to supress (alter) negative emotions and talking about "insignificant matters". It passes. I hope....

The question is this a dangerous study?

It is my understanding when U step outside your "normal" routine anything is "dangerous"!

With regards to the Gurdjieff work.

He said "one should be a good householder before beginning this work."

This means in general.....have yur shit together!.

If U suffering from something psychologically, monetarily, psychically, the work is not for U.

IMO, the 4th way will break those that are not "together" enough to begin with......so beware.

It is VERY hard on yur "self".

If anyone has questions let me kwow.

IMO anything Gurdy said that was true was part of a larger lie.

He stayed in Paris during World War II and had a well filled pantry full of gourmet food and an account at Hedier, one of the best delicatessens in the city.

A Russian exile who managed to stay in his own apartment in occuppied Paris while humbler persons without papers or important patrons were rounded up and left to starve and die in the sports stadium in Paris had to have had lots of important contacts.

He was just an operator who liked to play games with people and needed their attention.

He'd love it if we still paid attention to him after his death.

Unfortunately, too many of his successors have been hurtful charlatans and sadists, making it necessary to pay attention to this entire sad mess in order to assist the casualties.

Claiming one has to have ones shit together to benefit from Fourth Way, automatically shifts blame onto those who are harmed by the crooks doing this stuff.

Gurdjieff deliberately recruited people. Ouspensky, de Hartmann. He didnt wait for people to come to him. He publicized.

Fuck Gurdjieff. He was a master of covert trance and has left a trail of harm that in itself demonstrates what an expensive dead end his movement was.

corboy,

Anyone getting involved in any teaching 4th way included, should be "together" IMO.

That is to say if you are hurting badly in some manner and see any teaching as a "cure", it will likely lead to poor results and sadly in many cases outright exploitation.

Before joining any group it is my opinion one should very seriously answer 2 questions for oneself as best as one is able.

1. Where am I at now? (mentally, physically, emotionally)
2. What do I want?

IF either of these are unclear or in doubt, one should not join any group.

Certainly many of those that use "4th way" ideas were outright frauds as I mentioned in the OP. I do feel however some were not.

Now whether that means it is useful for everyone/anyone is certainly debatable.

As I said I don't condone anyone joining any 4th way group "legitimate" or not.

Ifi you are happy with your Fourth Way studies, fine. You have plenty of company to discuss them with.

This website is for persons who had less than happy exposure to the scene.

Some were born into the Fourth Way because their parents were in it. Webbydeb describes the joy of it all.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Resources for further reading

[forum.culteducation.com]

[forum.culteducation.com]

[forum.culteducation.com]

Again, if you are happy with your practice path, fine and dandy.

But many have not been at all pleased by their time in Gurdjieff's world and prefer a place to discuss this without any insinuations that they were weak or inferior or didnt have the 'right stuff.'

corboy,

As I stated several times, I do not belong nor endorse any participation in ANY 4th way group.

The fact you state I am is WRONG, and VERY offensive.

Is this the kind of "reasonable" response I can expect here?

I state what is my understanding. (again).

Anyone joining ANY group (4th way or not) when they are hurting from some life trauma of any sort, will often lead to an unwanted (possibly dangerous) outcome, as your critical functions are diminished. I guess this doesn't sound reasonable to you?

I am VERY much against any child being raised in ANY "group/religious" philosophy. Kids should be kids! Let em be!

The fact you state I insinuate persons are "weak or inferior" or don't have the "right stuff", I also find offensive.

I sincerely feel sympathy for ANYONE looking for answers that was deceived intentionally. I don't care if it was from a 4th way group or any other.

I posted here to state my op. on Gurdjieff/4th way groups after reading a number of threads about them, and having some knowledge of the persons/ideas involved.

The fact you immediately surmise I am a 4th way follower and am somehow blaming persons for being "weak" or "inferior" from my posts, might lead one to think you have your own issues that are not dealt with.

Were you hurt by some group of this nature?

corboy, for your sake I will say it once more.

I DO NOT RECOMMEND ANYONE JOIN ANY 4TH WAY/ GURDJIEFF RELATED GROUP.

Quote

Anyone getting involved in any teaching 4th way included, should be "together" IMO.

That is to say if you are hurting badly in some manner and see any teaching as a "cure", it will likely lead to poor results and sadly in many cases outright exploitation.

Before joining any group it is my opinion one should very seriously answer 2 questions for oneself as best as one is able.

1. Where am I at now? (mentally, physically, emotionally)
2. What do I want?

IF either of these are unclear or in doubt, one should not join any group.

dostfez, this sounds all very nice.

The grim truth as revealed by survivors is that many have been born into Fourth Way groups (webbydeb), or were covertly recruited by dishonest persons who posed as friends.

We have an article about a group in which clients of psychotherapists were recruited by therapists abusing the therapeutic alliance, whose ultimate loyalty was not professional ethics but to their teacher.

corboy,

The words I said that you quoted above are my personal thoughts on what an individual should seriously think about before joining ANY group. They have nothing to do with any 4th way philosophy or ideas.

I have no doubt people have been hurt, used or abused by those claiming to be 4th way, and that is tragic. As I have already said it's tragic when anyone who searches in good faith is abused by ANY group.

The fact you stated I am a 4th way follower when I have repeatedly stated I am not nor do I condone joining any 4th way group, then not addressing the issue after I stated that was offensive, shows something about yourself I think.

Beware of becoming an "anti cult CULTIST" corboy.

dostfez:

There is no such thing as "an 'anti cult CULTIST'".

It seems like your only purpose here is to argue.

And the post corboy commented about comes across as carefully crafted and cryptic "victim bashing".

Have you heard of the description "Internet troll"?

rrmoderator,

Wow!, I get called a troll after being falsely accused of being a 4th way practitioner. Nice. Why isn't he being modded for his false accusations which I found offensive?

As stated in the OP my purpose in coming here was to offer an opinion on the 4th way posts I have read here.

As for the post corboy commented on.

I wonder how it comes across as "victim bashing"? Do you find it wrong that anyone joining any group should have a good idea of where they are at personally and what they want from joining ANY group? I think if more people did this, there would far less abuses that could occur.

I'll say it again as apparently it isn't clear.

I have great sympathy for anyone who was a victim of ANY group while searching in good faith. Is that clear?

dostfez:

No.

What you said was quite "clear".

But we do disagree and I think your perspective is wrong.

Regardless of where someone is "personally" -- when groups are deceptive and manipulative they are to blame, not their victims.

You appear intent on insinuating blame elsewhere, which is frankly, victim bashing.

And your sympathy seems somewhat contrived, to say the least.