Legal, Financial, and Political advantages
Posted by:
bonnie
()
Date: May 27, 2005 05:21AM
After reading and pondering topics I read about on the forums , I began to wonder what the concern was, after all. Doesn't everyone have the right to invest or throw their own life away anyway they want to? So what if cults are raising kids to their beliefs; so are a lot of terrible parents. So what if cult leaders are vying for political power; so are many unscrululous and duplicitous people not affiliated with any particular faith.
So what bothers me? Well...
[b:79526ccbc2]1. Discrimination and Scapegoating
2. The Hidden Agenda
3. Financial and Political dishonesty[/b:79526ccbc2]
I'm not saying this well. What I would like to ask is:
[b:79526ccbc2]1. What are the legal, political, and financial advantages to forming a religious organization?[/b:79526ccbc2] Hiding dishonest motives behind the facade of a religious mission is very easy to do. We used to joke about starting a "church" to finance partying when I was a teenager.
[b:79526ccbc2]2.Do cults have the advantage of not being susceptable to investigation by governmental and legal agencies?[/b:79526ccbc2] We all know that religious organizations are able to claim tax-exempt status. What else are they able to get away with that the rest of the populace is not?
[b:79526ccbc2]3.Are their schools exempt from investigation?
4.Do their businesses have to follow the same legal guidelines as non-religious business?
Can anyone adress these questions?[/b:79526ccbc2]
It seems to me that if the [b:79526ccbc2]Business of Religion[/b:79526ccbc2] was considered to be just that, as in fact it usually is, it would not be as attractive to charlatans and sociopaths, and we wouldn't have the kind of situations experienced by the ISCON children and the victims of Jonestown.
Can't we cut through the excrement and look at the real issues?
In my opinion it's through [b:79526ccbc2]Secrecy and Legal exemption[/b:79526ccbc2] that cults obtain their power and also their danger to the public.
So what bothers me? Well...
[b:79526ccbc2]1. Discrimination and Scapegoating
2. The Hidden Agenda
3. Financial and Political dishonesty[/b:79526ccbc2]
I'm not saying this well. What I would like to ask is:
[b:79526ccbc2]1. What are the legal, political, and financial advantages to forming a religious organization?[/b:79526ccbc2] Hiding dishonest motives behind the facade of a religious mission is very easy to do. We used to joke about starting a "church" to finance partying when I was a teenager.
[b:79526ccbc2]2.Do cults have the advantage of not being susceptable to investigation by governmental and legal agencies?[/b:79526ccbc2] We all know that religious organizations are able to claim tax-exempt status. What else are they able to get away with that the rest of the populace is not?
[b:79526ccbc2]3.Are their schools exempt from investigation?
4.Do their businesses have to follow the same legal guidelines as non-religious business?
Can anyone adress these questions?[/b:79526ccbc2]
It seems to me that if the [b:79526ccbc2]Business of Religion[/b:79526ccbc2] was considered to be just that, as in fact it usually is, it would not be as attractive to charlatans and sociopaths, and we wouldn't have the kind of situations experienced by the ISCON children and the victims of Jonestown.
Can't we cut through the excrement and look at the real issues?
In my opinion it's through [b:79526ccbc2]Secrecy and Legal exemption[/b:79526ccbc2] that cults obtain their power and also their danger to the public.
Legal, Financial, and Political advantages
Posted by:
Toni
()
Date: May 27, 2005 09:31AM
Thank you, Bonnie, for sharing your pondering.
I've had similar musings today.
So, what IS wrong with these groups?
WHY did I post what I know?
It is deeper than finanical abuse.
And yes, concern about children's issues.
As a society, we speak up about other social issues. This cult phenomenon likewise should be addressed.
In my ponderings today, about "WHY did I post anything?"
I considered the following scenes in my home this past week:
A couple of young adults, raised in cult, recently at my home. David (fictitious name) figured out that he was raised in a cult, from his college psychology class - Lifton's criteria of thought reform. David has now been "out" for a year, his family and his entire history still in the cult. He's sorting out where to go from here. When I'd asked him "Do you still meditate?", David hesitated as was afraid of offending me and /or ostrasization for honesty...
David's private-cult high school curriculum, accredited school, included learning to read Sanskrit, so Hindu scripture could be read in its original purity.
Also in high school he had a mandatory class preparing youth to answer questions about the TM movement and their education, geared for those who would attend college elsewhere. They role played answering such questions as "Is TM a religion?" "What is your relationship to Maharishi?" "Why is your mantra a secret?"
What programming!!
As the boyfriend of my "niece", David stayed here a few days. One day, I happened to wear all black (no reason; they were my only clean clothes that day)
David said, "Toni, you know Maharishi said that wearing black is as bad as having a south facing entrance to your home."
As I glanced at my south facing front door, I asked "So, what's wrong with a south facing door or wearing black?"
"It invites evil spirits in"
"Oh mi gosh, I guess we'll get struck by lightening now!" :lol:
David was wide eyed visiting the Zoo - had never seen a rhinocerous; but could read Sanskrit.
One evening, after running with my dogs, he enthusiasticly said (no cult determined bedtime here)
"I have so much energy, I don't know what I should do now.. should I eat, or run with the dogs again, or what?"
He laughed at my response: "You're not in a cult now - You can do whatever YOU want! Just no drugs in my house!"
The internal cage is programmed into people; it takes years to break out of the patterns.
THAT, IMHO, is what is wrong with these groups.
It goes beyond the leaders' power and finanical benefits.
I've had similar musings today.
So, what IS wrong with these groups?
WHY did I post what I know?
It is deeper than finanical abuse.
And yes, concern about children's issues.
As a society, we speak up about other social issues. This cult phenomenon likewise should be addressed.
In my ponderings today, about "WHY did I post anything?"
I considered the following scenes in my home this past week:
A couple of young adults, raised in cult, recently at my home. David (fictitious name) figured out that he was raised in a cult, from his college psychology class - Lifton's criteria of thought reform. David has now been "out" for a year, his family and his entire history still in the cult. He's sorting out where to go from here. When I'd asked him "Do you still meditate?", David hesitated as was afraid of offending me and /or ostrasization for honesty...
David's private-cult high school curriculum, accredited school, included learning to read Sanskrit, so Hindu scripture could be read in its original purity.
Also in high school he had a mandatory class preparing youth to answer questions about the TM movement and their education, geared for those who would attend college elsewhere. They role played answering such questions as "Is TM a religion?" "What is your relationship to Maharishi?" "Why is your mantra a secret?"
What programming!!
As the boyfriend of my "niece", David stayed here a few days. One day, I happened to wear all black (no reason; they were my only clean clothes that day)
David said, "Toni, you know Maharishi said that wearing black is as bad as having a south facing entrance to your home."
As I glanced at my south facing front door, I asked "So, what's wrong with a south facing door or wearing black?"
"It invites evil spirits in"
"Oh mi gosh, I guess we'll get struck by lightening now!" :lol:
David was wide eyed visiting the Zoo - had never seen a rhinocerous; but could read Sanskrit.
One evening, after running with my dogs, he enthusiasticly said (no cult determined bedtime here)
"I have so much energy, I don't know what I should do now.. should I eat, or run with the dogs again, or what?"
He laughed at my response: "You're not in a cult now - You can do whatever YOU want! Just no drugs in my house!"
The internal cage is programmed into people; it takes years to break out of the patterns.
THAT, IMHO, is what is wrong with these groups.
It goes beyond the leaders' power and finanical benefits.
Legal, Financial, and Political advantages
Posted by:
bonnie
()
Date: May 27, 2005 11:31AM
Yeah, but the reason Cults and religions can get away with so much BS is, [b:3def75e005]I think[/b:3def75e005], because they have legal remedies keeping the prying eyes of the gov't and public away from what the don't care to display. That's why I am asking if anyone out there knows exactly what kind of privacy and financial benefits there are for a non-profit religious or quasi-religious orginization?
They certainly don't seem to have to abide by the same rules and regs that a business for profit, (which many of these groups seem in actuality to be), does.
[b:3def75e005]Am I correct in my assumption, Those who Know?[/b:3def75e005]
They certainly don't seem to have to abide by the same rules and regs that a business for profit, (which many of these groups seem in actuality to be), does.
[b:3def75e005]Am I correct in my assumption, Those who Know?[/b:3def75e005]
Legal, Financial, and Political advantages
Posted by:
Toni
()
Date: May 27, 2005 09:48PM
Yes, Bonnie,
You are correct in your assumption. There are many advantages for a business to function under the guise of religion.
Cosmophilosopher wrote more about that on another thread. You could search his postings.
You are correct in your assumption. There are many advantages for a business to function under the guise of religion.
Cosmophilosopher wrote more about that on another thread. You could search his postings.
Legal, Financial, and Political advantages
Posted by:
Martin
()
Date: May 28, 2005 11:56PM
Hi, Bonnie and Toni
We might consider how long it took for "society" and the law to catch up with the offending RC priests who were abusing children. The difficulty a free society experiences is that if its members do not stand up for themselves, for their rights, for the rights of others, especially children, nothing can be done.
Consider how many men abuse their wives. Society is helpless unless the wife presses charges, something she is often simply too brainwashed by her situation, made too afraid by her situation, to do.
Consider the families who were apparently bought-off by Michael Jackson.
But I think there is something that can be done: you (individuals) can create watchdog groups, investigative bodies. Hence, this forum and any number of other forums dedicated to exposing wrongdoing.
When you suspect it is out there, it can be investigated. Investigating may turn up sufficient evidence to do something, as Toni has indicated.
It's simply difficult. But, in a society that is fundamentalistic in nature, then the law can shut down anything it wants with or without pretext and there can be only one thing, one way. That doesn't sound too appealing, except that most of the free world is full of just such things: churches, cults, good stuff, bad stuff, beneficial to others, self-serving, self-destructive or aimed at destroying everything not-itself.
An issue that free societies have difficulties coming to grips with is that there is a very widespread tendency, porportional to freedom itself: the more freedom the government gives, the more people are inclined to want the government to fix things [i:f3711300d6]for [/i:f3711300d6]them.
The freedom to be responsible is as difficult for some as having no freedom at all. Hence, cults.
M[/color:f3711300d6]
We might consider how long it took for "society" and the law to catch up with the offending RC priests who were abusing children. The difficulty a free society experiences is that if its members do not stand up for themselves, for their rights, for the rights of others, especially children, nothing can be done.
Consider how many men abuse their wives. Society is helpless unless the wife presses charges, something she is often simply too brainwashed by her situation, made too afraid by her situation, to do.
Consider the families who were apparently bought-off by Michael Jackson.
But I think there is something that can be done: you (individuals) can create watchdog groups, investigative bodies. Hence, this forum and any number of other forums dedicated to exposing wrongdoing.
When you suspect it is out there, it can be investigated. Investigating may turn up sufficient evidence to do something, as Toni has indicated.
It's simply difficult. But, in a society that is fundamentalistic in nature, then the law can shut down anything it wants with or without pretext and there can be only one thing, one way. That doesn't sound too appealing, except that most of the free world is full of just such things: churches, cults, good stuff, bad stuff, beneficial to others, self-serving, self-destructive or aimed at destroying everything not-itself.
An issue that free societies have difficulties coming to grips with is that there is a very widespread tendency, porportional to freedom itself: the more freedom the government gives, the more people are inclined to want the government to fix things [i:f3711300d6]for [/i:f3711300d6]them.
The freedom to be responsible is as difficult for some as having no freedom at all. Hence, cults.
M[/color:f3711300d6]
Legal, Financial, and Political advantages
Posted by:
bonnie
()
Date: May 29, 2005 05:44AM
Yeah, yeah, yeah it's a dog eat dog universe. It's also a country in which we have certain guidelines for education institutions and businesses, ostensibly to protect the general public.
If a religious organization has a history of secrecy and a refusal to permit questioning, a single individual would do best to avoid this organization.
In the case of cult or sect-run schools, I was curious as to whether they are overseen by the same agencies that watchdog the public school system. This would do a lot to protect the gullible, and their children.
If a religious organization has a history of secrecy and a refusal to permit questioning, a single individual would do best to avoid this organization.
In the case of cult or sect-run schools, I was curious as to whether they are overseen by the same agencies that watchdog the public school system. This would do a lot to protect the gullible, and their children.
Legal, Financial, and Political advantages
Posted by:
Toni
()
Date: May 29, 2005 08:06AM
Bonnie:
Private Schools, even those that are acredited, have different regulatory guidelines than public schools in most states.
For example, in a California public school, a teacher must have a teaching credential. Private school teachers are not required to have teaching credentials.
Amish teachers have the mandatory 6th grade education that all Amish have.
Watch for book soon to be released
God vs the Gavel: Religion and the Rule of Law by Marci Hamilton
For information on issues related to clergy abuse, the following links address cases handled by Marci Hamilton
[writ.news.findlaw.com]
[writ.news.findlaw.com]
[writ.news.findlaw.com]
[writ.news.findlaw.com]
Private Schools, even those that are acredited, have different regulatory guidelines than public schools in most states.
For example, in a California public school, a teacher must have a teaching credential. Private school teachers are not required to have teaching credentials.
Amish teachers have the mandatory 6th grade education that all Amish have.
Watch for book soon to be released
God vs the Gavel: Religion and the Rule of Law by Marci Hamilton
For information on issues related to clergy abuse, the following links address cases handled by Marci Hamilton
[writ.news.findlaw.com]
[writ.news.findlaw.com]
[writ.news.findlaw.com]
[writ.news.findlaw.com]
Legal, Financial, and Political advantages
Posted by:
Toni
()
Date: May 29, 2005 10:42PM
P.S.
Hamilton's Book
"God vs the Gavel; Religion and the Rule of Law"
can be found on amazon.com already; it's just not available for shipping yet.
I hope this helps. It should be an interesting read.
Hamilton's Book
"God vs the Gavel; Religion and the Rule of Law"
can be found on amazon.com already; it's just not available for shipping yet.
I hope this helps. It should be an interesting read.
Legal, Financial, and Political advantages
Posted by:
ULTAWARE
()
Date: June 02, 2005 09:19AM
Humbly, I offer my 2 cents, ok with gas prices now-a-days, my $3.00 worth...
It seems to me (keep in mind I'm a critically-thinking outsider-lost 20+ yr ex to LGAT) that cult - technique groups use steps similar to a tide coming in, or great kisses,....slow, intermittent, wet (in this discussion, undermining to what the receiver is looking for), "back-door seduction of the mind! While you're looking for terrorists flying the planes overhead, someone is taking your privacy away by watching you by tracking your credit card purchases, for example (I did indeed tone this down mod'r !)'
Anyway, without a "direct" approach, most defenses are down, unless they are already prepped - "vulnerable, under stress, looking/needing "the answers for something because they somehow wrongly think that they arew not "perfect" (what is that ?) ...well maybe it's due in some way to USA consumerizing marketing? ("blind following the blind" - meaning, subconscious messages that REALLY control a lot ' o ' folk! (ah, my midwestern side!)
If you really know what people wnat/search for beforehand, you could feed them my lasagne and if the presentation is right because of that knowledge but unknown to the person, seem JUST AWESOME! because it cannot do nothing else but hit home! so easy picks....
Ok, again I rambled 2oo much...
PAX...
It seems to me (keep in mind I'm a critically-thinking outsider-lost 20+ yr ex to LGAT) that cult - technique groups use steps similar to a tide coming in, or great kisses,....slow, intermittent, wet (in this discussion, undermining to what the receiver is looking for), "back-door seduction of the mind! While you're looking for terrorists flying the planes overhead, someone is taking your privacy away by watching you by tracking your credit card purchases, for example (I did indeed tone this down mod'r !)'
Anyway, without a "direct" approach, most defenses are down, unless they are already prepped - "vulnerable, under stress, looking/needing "the answers for something because they somehow wrongly think that they arew not "perfect" (what is that ?) ...well maybe it's due in some way to USA consumerizing marketing? ("blind following the blind" - meaning, subconscious messages that REALLY control a lot ' o ' folk! (ah, my midwestern side!)
If you really know what people wnat/search for beforehand, you could feed them my lasagne and if the presentation is right because of that knowledge but unknown to the person, seem JUST AWESOME! because it cannot do nothing else but hit home! so easy picks....
Ok, again I rambled 2oo much...
PAX...
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