The quote was from The Womens Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets (BG Walker). I have mentioned it before and I find myself reading it now and then. Being an encyclopedia, categories are alphabetised and, therefore, this book is easy to pick up and just browse. However, I use it as a starting point for further research.

Monotheism is certainly also a Jewish and Islamic concept, too. I particularly like that you use the word concept here. I think that is healthy and reveals that you are open to more concepts than the potentially limiting ones usual for a Christian. Note, this is just my opinion based on experience.

However, in the context of what I quoted, I assume it makes a distinction between the ancient religions and the modern ones. Having said that, I will certainly delve a little deeper to see if there is a further distinction between Christianitys concept of a single deity and these other modern religions.

Please note, as it is frustrating me, that my keyboard refuses to print apostrophes... just another thing I will have to look into....

HI Jack,
Modern Christianity is different than other monotheistic religions in that the modern Christian believes that the one Creator God ''manifested'' himself in the person of Jesus. We believe that Jesus was a part of God in the same way that my own hand is a part of me. My hand ''is'' me...yet is a ''seperate'' entity.
So the ''manifestation'' of Christ is almost like me putting my own hand into the sand to retrieve a precious item. (of course the sand is like the sinful world and man is the gold....)
You've heard the expression ''trinity''? This describes the different dimensions of our one Creator(according to the modern Christian ideology). We see the universe as triune. Examples.... 1)body, 2)mind and 3)soul describe one person..... 1)past 2)present and 3)future describe time...... 1)height 2)width and 3)depth describe space...etc..
So we recongnize 1)father 2) son and 3)holy spirit as different aspects of the one ''mono'' creator ''god''.
Jesus...a recognized and eternal part of God...is who the modern Christian calls ''Savior''.
That's the difference. The other monotheistic religions don't recognize him.
The other religions do however, like modern Christianity; believe in heaven and hell. They believe in the sinful nature of man. In fact if I'm not mistaken, they also believe fundamentally in the flood(Jewish does...I am not too certain about Islam).
There is also some difference between Catholicism and, what some call evangelical Christianity.
Any good book about ancient Mesopotania would probably interest you a lot. If I'm not mistaken, during the glory days of Egypt(very polytheistic), Israel was the only people who believed in one God. Much of the old testament history is validated by modern archeologists who have found remains of places such as Ur of the Chaldeans(where the Bible says Abraham came from). But you might want to read from a non-Christian source which also talks about other co-existing cultures of that time. It's all really fascinating. Anyway I have to throw this in....the belief of the Christian is that the one true God not only created us all...but loves us all...as demonstrated in the manifestation of Christ.

The original message in this thread sounds really awful! This is why I stepped away from Paganism (the semi-organized type anyway). So many Pagans and Wiccans engage in "witch wars" in which they engage in behavior that is so clearly in contrast to the beliefs and tenets of those religions. The Wiccan Rede strictly admonishes, "An' it harm none, do what ye will." Those acts are SO harmful.

Divine retribution will be visited upon those who committed such acts of hate. It would be really wonderful if the legal system could find out who these individuals are and prosecute them. It is obviously a hate crime and feeds the ever-present rift between Christians and Wiccans.

Why can't we all just bloody get along??



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/16/2007 06:30AM by wanderingbutnotlost.

It is awful, wanderingbutnotlost.

But I don't fully understand the 'why' you stepped away from Paganism. It further confuses me when you say in parenthesis, 'the semi-organised type anyway'. Are you suggesting that you're part of a more organised group?

I don't think it is fair to say that Pagans and Wiccans engage in 'witch wars' to any great degree, unless you've just finished watching a Harry Potter movie. Bad humour, I know. The point is that Wiccans do uphold solid notions of love and peace (as you pointed out) and, therefore, any hatred or warfare administered by so-called Wiccans brings their beliefs into question. Don't you think?

Stupidity, hatred and violence is not limited to any one particular group or doctrine. My view is that these isolated incidences are carried out by disturbed individuals who have no right to call themselves Pagans, Wiccans, Christians, Muslims, etc.

Yes, it certainly would be fitting if the legal system could catch these perpetrators of hatred and violence. That's really all we (I) can hope for.

Just one last thing, it troubles me that the original poster of this thread never gave any specific links to the story. It would seem that this is a case of propaganda against a normally benevolent ideology. Maybe if we all learned to cool down enough to study the facts, we could all get along.

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Search4Tomorrow
I have been meaning to post this for awhile, but never got around to it.

Earlier this year a group of Feminist Wicaans broke into a number of churches. Urinated on pews and bibles, and deficated on the Cross. Clearly this is a religious hate crime, but I notice ,many people dont really seem to care as it was done against Christians and the attitude is they deserve everything they get.

I have also noticed a gorwing attitude by a segment of wiccans on yahoo chat and some other chat forums, concerning Wiccans plotting more and more hate crimes against Christians.

This clearly flies in the face of the Wiccan Creed, and someone really needs to pull these people in line.

Is there a news article on this incident?

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Jack Oskar Larm
It is awful, wanderingbutnotlost.

But I don't fully understand the 'why' you stepped away from Paganism. It further confuses me when you say in parenthesis, 'the semi-organised type anyway'. Are you suggesting that you're part of a more organised group?

I don't think it is fair to say that Pagans and Wiccans engage in 'witch wars' to any great degree, unless you've just finished watching a Harry Potter movie. Bad humour, I know. The point is that Wiccans do uphold solid notions of love and peace (as you pointed out) and, therefore, any hatred or warfare administered by so-called Wiccans brings their beliefs into question. Don't you think?

Hi Jack,

My spiritual practice has returned to primarily a solitary practice. Actually, the term "witch wars" has been used to describe discord usually between groups or covens in a particular region. A group near where I live went to another group's meeting place a few years back and destroyed the place where they gathered and held circle. I'm not a big fan of Harry Potter films and have only seen two of them... they're nice and entertaining, but any connection to witchcraft ends there. I guess because I've not read the books or seen many of the films, your reference is completely lost on me. I've stepped away from participating in groups and circles because of the witch wars, though, and the anti-Christian sentiment so many of my so-called Pagan friends constantly spew. I don't speak to them much anymore. I'm not rude if I encounter them in public or socially, but I don't really talk to them or actively seek them out or participate in circles with them anymore.

I didn't mean to mislead you into thinking I was part of a larger, more organized group of Pagans. I don't know of any.

I agree with you, the acts described in the original post on this thread are the acts of disturbed individuals and should not be taken as actions representative of Wiccans or Pagans.

I'm still a Pagan at heart, I guess, for lack of a better term. At this time, my husband and I are studying and practicing Native American spirituality, which seems to be where our road is leading us at this point in our lives.

That's why I have the moniker "wonderingbutnotlost" ... while my beliefs have shifted over the years, I have been wandering through the various forms of spirituality throughout the world and have come to understand from my perspective that the various religions sprang from each culture's adaptation of belief in the Divine. It is the same Divine Source. Not all who wander are lost... I just feel like I've been able to experience God from different cultural vantage points (religious belief systems).

Hope I cleared that up. :)

--wanderingbutnotlost

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The original message in this thread sounds really awful! This is why I stepped away from Paganism (the semi-organized type anyway). So many Pagans and Wiccans engage in "witch wars" in which they engage in behavior that is so clearly in contrast to the beliefs and tenets of those religions. The Wiccan Rede strictly admonishes, "An' it harm none, do what ye will." Those acts are SO harmful.

Divine retribution will be visited upon those who committed such acts of hate. It would be really wonderful if the legal system could find out who these individuals are and prosecute them. It is obviously a hate crime and feeds the ever-present rift between Christians and Wiccans.

Why can't we all just bloody get along??

The term 'witch wars' is used occassionally in pagan circles for what goes on. Another word for it is 'bitchcraft'.

As to semi-organised I think Wandering would mean like the moot and open ritual scene, where rituals and meets are held that anyone can attend. Am I right, Wandering?

I don't know if you've had much to do with that type of scene or attended it on a regular basis, Jack?

I've had about ten years of being slightly involved in that scene and that of paganism as a whole.

Not saying wicca in itself is bad- but of course it, and the people involved in it, have things that can occassionally be destructive elements, like any other religious group. I don't see why critiquing pagan groups is wrong, there is plenty to critique, believe me.

By bitchcraft- I mean spreading rumours and lies about other people involved, to others in the 'pagan community'- this is particularly destructive because it is a small community.

Witch wars- yes these do exist in the real world- covens will fall out sometimes, or over a desire to appear better than another individual or group, or a belief that the other group is destructive, a coven will work magick against them. People fall out in any religion, and pagans believe in magick so of course that is one of the tools they will use in a disagreement.

There's a lot of power struggles, fights for status etc, within the semi-organised (good term for it, Wandering) pagan community. People can get demonised by groups of individuals.

Here is just one site about the bullying that can happen [www.geocities.com]

A lot of these problems may be lessened by working as a solitary and meeting others on a more individual level. People can get to know others better on the internet now so you know someone a little before meeting them (in a public place of course) rather than going along 'blind' to an open meet, not knowing who's going to be there.

---
As to the original subject of this thread- the person didn't back it up, but of course people say silly things sometimes, and sometimes carry them out. Such a group would not be a large one though, and if they were serious they'd probably not discuss their plans much in a yahoo group.

Also- can we stay on-topic, please? :)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2008 09:23PM by kath.

Hi Kath your PM is full.

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Search4Tomorrow
I have been meaning to post this for awhile, but never got around to it.

Earlier this year a group of Feminist Wicaans broke into a number of churches. Urinated on pews and bibles, and deficated on the Cross. Clearly this is a religious hate crime, but I notice ,many people dont really seem to care as it was done against Christians and the attitude is they deserve everything they get.

I have also noticed a gorwing attitude by a segment of wiccans on yahoo chat and some other chat forums, concerning Wiccans plotting more and more hate crimes against Christians.

This clearly flies in the face of the Wiccan Creed, and someone really needs to pull these people in line.

If what you say is true, then this is one specific group of people and not all wiccans everywhre. I have noticed that christians and others tend to be very prejudiced against wiccans as well, but not all christians everywhere.

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Search4Tomorrow
I have been meaning to post this for awhile, but never got around to it.

Earlier this year a group of Feminist Wicaans broke into a number of churches. Urinated on pews and bibles, and deficated on the Cross. Clearly this is a religious hate crime, but I notice ,many people dont really seem to care as it was done against Christians and the attitude is they deserve everything they get.

I have also noticed a gorwing attitude by a segment of wiccans on yahoo chat and some other chat forums, concerning Wiccans plotting more and more hate crimes against Christians.

This clearly flies in the face of the Wiccan Creed, and someone really needs to pull these people in line.

I havnt seen any news about these incidents.

I suspect these claims to be bogus.

Sounds like just propaganda. Certainly something most true wiccans wouldnt do.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2008 12:14AM by Keir.