Re: are people just born desperate and gullible?
Posted by:
jeffsjo
()
Date: September 25, 2010 05:04AM
Quote
Stoic
As a further thought, I have never been able to fathom how much my seemingly True-Believing family actually buys whole-heartedly into the cult belief systems and how much is purely fear-driven cowardice.
I have not been able to fathom that because although intelligent, my family members are scrupulous about not examining the issue, the denial is absolute. This is obviously a result of fear of the consequences should they allow the denial to crack.
How much is buying into the cult belief system and how much is fear driven cowardice?
Maybe once they decide they must buy into the cult belief system the fear driven cowardice just helps keep them where they believe they should be..hmmm Seems like both aspects may just be flip sides of the same coin.?
IMO cult leaders play both sides of the coin and are successful when the followers best instincts(love and loyalty) and worse instincts (base survival) [(Worse instincts, but not worthless if we need survival solutions I guess.)] work together to keep them ensnared.
Quote
Having suffered the consequences, I have some understanding of why they take this view. I also don't consider that I lack that fear-driven cowardice, it was purely a personal survival issue for me so there was no real choice--the danger of staying being greater to me than that of fleeing. I was subject to the same fears and cowardice as my family members but as my circumstances were different, was forced into coming to a different conclusion.
Sometimes I hear something that reminds me that every situation and every person is unique to itself even if general tendencies may repeat. This last part is one such reminder for me.
Re: are people just born desperate and gullible?
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: September 25, 2010 06:39AM
To whom it may concern:
The human mind really isn't that strong.
Rather than blaming cult victims by labeling them "gullible" or "cowardly" it's important to understand the manipulation, coercion and deception that is involved in cult recruitment and retention.
It is possible for people to simply be "brainwashed" and therefore unable to think critically or independently enough to break free.
Read these links:
[www.culteducation.com]
[www.culteducation.com]
[www.culteducation.com]
[www.culteducation.com]
The human mind really isn't that strong.
Rather than blaming cult victims by labeling them "gullible" or "cowardly" it's important to understand the manipulation, coercion and deception that is involved in cult recruitment and retention.
It is possible for people to simply be "brainwashed" and therefore unable to think critically or independently enough to break free.
Read these links:
[www.culteducation.com]
[www.culteducation.com]
[www.culteducation.com]
[www.culteducation.com]
Re: are people just born desperate and gullible?
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: September 25, 2010 08:21AM
@ jeffsjo,
I doubt that anybody makes a conscious choice about buying into the beliefs, there is a good analogy about boiling a frog---if you put it into a pot of hot water to boil it will jump straight out, if you put it into cold water and slowly heat the pot then it stays put and gets boiled. (not that I've ever boiled any frogs--its an illustration)
I think that the 'both sides of the coin' applies also to gullibility, we are impressionable which is what allows us to learn easily from birth and throughout life, it also makes us vulnerable to learning things inadvertently that we may not want to aquire.
I doubt that anybody makes a conscious choice about buying into the beliefs, there is a good analogy about boiling a frog---if you put it into a pot of hot water to boil it will jump straight out, if you put it into cold water and slowly heat the pot then it stays put and gets boiled. (not that I've ever boiled any frogs--its an illustration)
I think that the 'both sides of the coin' applies also to gullibility, we are impressionable which is what allows us to learn easily from birth and throughout life, it also makes us vulnerable to learning things inadvertently that we may not want to aquire.
Re: are people just born desperate and gullible?
Posted by:
jeffsjo
()
Date: September 25, 2010 11:34PM
Dear rrmoderator,
Those posts have a lot of information and IMO are certainly worth looking over, which I will do, thank you. Even a brief overview of the links seems very interesting. The comparison between "Education, Advertising, Propaganda, Indoctrination, & Thought Reform" seem to be a very useful comparison, especially if I can find my Thesaurus,hehehehe.
And as far as labeling cult members to be gullible and cowardly goes, you are correct in that those labels can certainly further isolate and repress people who need help recovering from their cult experiences and for the record, if I ever unknowingly do so to a cult victim I hope somebody is around to slap me upside my head.
But as far as my own experience goes I have to recognize my own instincts as pertaining to "love and/or loyalty" and that fearful "get out from in front of that train" feeling as factors that I must take into account while processing my own experiences.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Stoic,
For me there was a conscious decision to sell out to the cult doctrine when it came to deciding where I would live and what I'd do, so maybe thinking about it like that is just reflecting the reality that for me there were decisions along those lines, more than once. But as time went on it became more and more clear to me that the idealized version of reality that I thought was happening was completely inadequate. And even though I knew my cult leader was blowing it bigtime I had no clear perception of the extent of his perverse and manipulative nature, otherwise I would have taken my wife and myself out of the pot, so-to-speak.
I still have some of the same idealism inside me I suppose, but still, most of my life has been thrown upon the shoals that were there because of lies, deceit, manipulation, and cruelty. So, in a nutshell I have to agree with you that such lessons are things I would prefer not to have learned, and since I know I still have some of that initial idealism I suppose in theory I am still prone to be snookered by another conman. But I think it's fair to say that I am not AS PRONE to be snookered again.
Those posts have a lot of information and IMO are certainly worth looking over, which I will do, thank you. Even a brief overview of the links seems very interesting. The comparison between "Education, Advertising, Propaganda, Indoctrination, & Thought Reform" seem to be a very useful comparison, especially if I can find my Thesaurus,hehehehe.
And as far as labeling cult members to be gullible and cowardly goes, you are correct in that those labels can certainly further isolate and repress people who need help recovering from their cult experiences and for the record, if I ever unknowingly do so to a cult victim I hope somebody is around to slap me upside my head.
But as far as my own experience goes I have to recognize my own instincts as pertaining to "love and/or loyalty" and that fearful "get out from in front of that train" feeling as factors that I must take into account while processing my own experiences.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dear Stoic,
For me there was a conscious decision to sell out to the cult doctrine when it came to deciding where I would live and what I'd do, so maybe thinking about it like that is just reflecting the reality that for me there were decisions along those lines, more than once. But as time went on it became more and more clear to me that the idealized version of reality that I thought was happening was completely inadequate. And even though I knew my cult leader was blowing it bigtime I had no clear perception of the extent of his perverse and manipulative nature, otherwise I would have taken my wife and myself out of the pot, so-to-speak.
I still have some of the same idealism inside me I suppose, but still, most of my life has been thrown upon the shoals that were there because of lies, deceit, manipulation, and cruelty. So, in a nutshell I have to agree with you that such lessons are things I would prefer not to have learned, and since I know I still have some of that initial idealism I suppose in theory I am still prone to be snookered by another conman. But I think it's fair to say that I am not AS PRONE to be snookered again.
Re: are people just born desperate and gullible?
Posted by:
Stoic
()
Date: September 26, 2010 03:10AM
My list of lessons learned is enormous, and still has some way to grow. I find though, with time, that while I might have preferred not to learn some lessons in the particular ways I did, there are still benefits to the learning.
That might be a result of realising that I cannot undo anything from the past, so while it is entirely sensible to regret cult involvement, having to learn and apply some critical thinking has benefitted me beyond measure.
Good luck with the thesaurus (google is your friend, at least for definitions)
That might be a result of realising that I cannot undo anything from the past, so while it is entirely sensible to regret cult involvement, having to learn and apply some critical thinking has benefitted me beyond measure.
Good luck with the thesaurus (google is your friend, at least for definitions)
Re: are people just born desperate and gullible?
Posted by:
t33om
()
Date: July 01, 2012 07:09PM
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Re: are people just born desperate and gullible?
Posted by:
magnocrat
()
Date: September 03, 2016 04:58PM
Dave remember intelligence is no defence against radicalization. Very clever people fall victims to these manipulative fraudsters. Those with low IQ are just as vulnerable. Any of us could be duped. It is a process of getting the mind to slip into a mind-set and abandon its on inner voice of conscience. As children we all do this looking up to infallible parents.
Re: are people just born desperate and gullible?
Posted by:
Servant Victoria
()
Date: July 29, 2017 04:40AM
I agree with rrmoderator on this subject. Terms like "gullible" and "desperate" assign blame to the victim/survivor, who already carries a huge amount of shame when they awaken to the truth of their destructive situation. It is not helpful in the least for a survivor to hear these labels. They already "feel stupid" for what has taken place, and the self-blame can be overwhelming.
Also, I echo magnocrat's view that intelligence doesn't protect us either. If you are the type of person who simply concludes that more sophisticated people are cult-proof and less so people are silly fools... that in itself is oversimplification and doesn't do much to display your own "sophistication" or "intelligence."
The particulars of getting caught up in an unhealthy cult is different for every person, but it is often related to the fact that we were created with a desire for love and acceptance and to belong to something larger than ourselves. As humans, trust is essential to building healthy relationships... and it really is a beautiful thing to trust, not something to be called out as a defect. Everyone has had trusted someone else and been misled, let down, taken advantage of or abandoned. But without trust, we are unable to share joy, ask for help or build anything meaningful together as humans. Is someone in a cult more "gullible" than someone whose trust was abused by a business partner, boss or spouse?
Any cult victim reading this, you are not cowardly or a simpleton. This label has nothing to do with you.
Blessings to all...
Also, I echo magnocrat's view that intelligence doesn't protect us either. If you are the type of person who simply concludes that more sophisticated people are cult-proof and less so people are silly fools... that in itself is oversimplification and doesn't do much to display your own "sophistication" or "intelligence."
The particulars of getting caught up in an unhealthy cult is different for every person, but it is often related to the fact that we were created with a desire for love and acceptance and to belong to something larger than ourselves. As humans, trust is essential to building healthy relationships... and it really is a beautiful thing to trust, not something to be called out as a defect. Everyone has had trusted someone else and been misled, let down, taken advantage of or abandoned. But without trust, we are unable to share joy, ask for help or build anything meaningful together as humans. Is someone in a cult more "gullible" than someone whose trust was abused by a business partner, boss or spouse?
Any cult victim reading this, you are not cowardly or a simpleton. This label has nothing to do with you.
Blessings to all...
Re: are people just born desperate and gullible?
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: July 29, 2017 08:34AM
To say we are born desperate and vulnerable is to state the question in a manner that is not helpful - IMO, it is misleading.
Without relationship we die or go crazy. As Bugs Bunny put it, there comes a point where, "Ya gotta trust someone."
"Human beings, like all social mammals, are biologically hard-wired to need people." (Addiction as an Attachment Disorder - Flores)
[books.google.com]
In theological terminology this is to say that as human beings we
are creaturely.
And as we go through life, we encounter situations that leave us
disoriented - and that is when we need to find human connection
more than ever. Leaving home, a new school, loss of someone you
love, illness or accident - the ways are many.
And...some predatory people single out exactly those persons
who are most vulnerable.
Here is something written about problems in yoga classes. But
if the terms are changed, it applies as well to churches, temples,
and, alas, badly run chaplaincy training programs (CPE).
[forum.culteducation.com]
Without relationship we die or go crazy. As Bugs Bunny put it, there comes a point where, "Ya gotta trust someone."
"Human beings, like all social mammals, are biologically hard-wired to need people." (Addiction as an Attachment Disorder - Flores)
[books.google.com]
In theological terminology this is to say that as human beings we
are creaturely.
And as we go through life, we encounter situations that leave us
disoriented - and that is when we need to find human connection
more than ever. Leaving home, a new school, loss of someone you
love, illness or accident - the ways are many.
And...some predatory people single out exactly those persons
who are most vulnerable.
Here is something written about problems in yoga classes. But
if the terms are changed, it applies as well to churches, temples,
and, alas, badly run chaplaincy training programs (CPE).
[forum.culteducation.com]
Cults selectively recruit and groom bright educated people
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: August 28, 2017 03:29AM
Gurus and other cult leaders hate boredom. They want care providers who are
interesting and entertaining -- but who are also controllable.
[www.thequint.com]
Dominance and Submission: The Psychosexual Exploitation of Women in Cults
[cultresearch.org]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2017 03:32AM by corboy.
interesting and entertaining -- but who are also controllable.
[www.thequint.com]
Quote
Though the common misconception is that only crazy, unstable, or weird people join cults, a paper published in the Cultic Studies Journal* by Janja Lalich has shown that most cult members are of above-average intelligence, come from stable backgrounds, and do not have a history of psychological illness.
“Cult leaders and cult recruiters tend to capture the hearts, minds, and souls of the best and brightest in our society,” the research says.
Quote
“But I was so sure,” she says. “I felt so strongly about joining a spiritual group to spread happiness and peace through meditation and spirituality.” Soon, she became part of a select group of people who worked closely with the godman and looked after the running of his empire.
It was a big privilege to touch his belongings. One day, I was told that I could clean his room. From then on, I would clean his room every day. During one such occasion, he was there in the room. He hugged me. Not in a way a guru would, but just as a man would hug a woman he was interested in.
A terrified Veena ran out. But she was summoned again, and the guru ‘explained’ to her that mere mortals like her saw ‘human bodies’, while he only saw the soul.
He told me that every avatar of god would find another soul who needed to be elevated. Like Krishna found Radha and blessed her soul. I was his Radha, he said. Normally, after a session, he would hug a few chosen disciples. This included children, young, middle-aged and old people. We were constantly told that he was only touching our soul.
For months, what Veena went through was mental conditioning. She was told that the guru’s touch was only for a select lucky few who were very spiritual souls. The hug had soon progressed to sex and Veena was coerced to believe that it was a path to salvation. She was given the guru’s special blessing whenever he desired it.
“Though he would hug a few of us, he told me not to tell others about our relationship. I was the special one, the only one who was blessed to be his soul mate (have intercourse with him),” she says.
The state of affairs went on for several years. As a young educated woman, why did Veena not walk away from there? Can this be considered sexual assault or rape? Over the years, many have asked her this.
This is how a cult works; this is how power structures work. It was ingrained into us that the guru was supreme and worldly pleasures meant nothing to him. Every time the abuse happened, he would tell me that my soul had become a bit more elevated and I was almost at the next level.
The Bhagavatham and other revered Hindu scriptures were constantly quoted to her. “I was told that though I was a special soul, I was not discovered by a guru in my previous births.”
Wiping Out Evidence
The guru, however, was a clever man, who ensured that there was no trace of evidence. In many cases in India and throughout the world, it has been well documented how such gurus wipe out evidence.
Premananda Swamy convicted in 2005 would facilitate abortions. Aravindan Balakrishnan (a Maoist cult leader) established himself as someone who could control nature and it was proved in a court in UK that he would first isolate victims from families so that they never betrayed his secrets. He was convicted of six counts of indecent assaults and four counts of rape in 2015.
Dominance and Submission: The Psychosexual Exploitation of Women in Cults
[cultresearch.org]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/28/2017 03:32AM by corboy.
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