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kageki
I am a little surprised to see absolutely no mention of these government programs on this site that has been talked about for years albeit usually in the "conspiracy" circles. .

I have been aware of it for a number of years (Ive seen some interesting documentaries about it on tv).
I think people were more focused with thier experiences with cults.
Although it would be great for some of the survivors of these programs to come to the board and speak out.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2009 01:16AM by Keir.

Quote
Keir

Quote
kageki
I am a little surprised to see absolutely no mention of these government programs on this site that has been talked about for years albeit usually in the "conspiracy" circles. .

I have been aware of it for a number of years (Ive seen some interesting documentaries about it on tv).
I think people were more focused with thier experiences with cults.
Although it would be great for some of the survivors of these programs to come to the board and speak out.

I don't think any survivors would be particularly welcome on this forum, it's obviously too "out there" for most people. However, I find the testimony of Cathy O'Brien dovetails with other research into govt black ops quite nicely. It's a big subject and can eat up a great deal of time researching. If one is not willing to perform said research themselves, then it might be wise to either do some, or refrain from spouting an uninformed opinion in a dismissive way. Usually when I hear people ridicule alternative information, I wonder who they are putting their trust in to provide them with the "truth". It's hard to believe that the inclination on this forum to subject cults to obsessive scrutiny stops short with US intelligence agencies regarding mind control....why? CIA got your back? Sure.

There is also the very dangerous cult of Neil Brick et al who openly claim to have been turned into "Manchurian candidates" by the MKUltra program and trhe Freemasons. Lest you think I am being sarcastic, see this link:

[www.google.com]

I use the google search link because Brick's been at it long enough to have his little army of internet peeps warning him to switch links when one appears in this type of forum, but he needs the internet badly enough that there will always be something about his MKUltra cult, somewhere.

I find it hard to laugh at his fantasy when one considers that people who really believe in their delusions may act them out. He has engaged with real people in real situations and attracted vulnerable ones to his flock. He has been a very close associate of the charlatan Dale Griffis and is a close associate of another individual, Bobbie Gagne, who is part of a very dangerous group in Vermont and upstate New York. Her group uses "anger management" demands of courts to put men into rehab that is more interested in creating a "new" man (Stepford husbands?) than in delivering any genuine services. Here's a link about her work, don't be fooled by the apparent mainstream acceptance. Most people don't know about her association with Neil Brick's group.

[www.google.com]

Conspiracy buffs can have a field day with this, but it should not cause more reasonable people to turn a blind eye to what some of these people are actually doing when they create active little cults based on the conspiracy material.

I looked at the above links and could not find any evidence of a cult in either of them. The website connected to Brick seems to have a bunch of articles on how to avoid being mind controlled, when I clicked on the mind control tab there. http://ritualabuse.us/mindcontrol/

I read about Griffis testifying at the West Memphis 3 trial on the web. The 3 appeared to be guilty from the information I saw connecting them to a small teenage cult they had. All I could find on Gagne was her connection to a domestic violence shelter.

I hate cults and mind control, having grown up in one and escaping it as an adult. But we need to critically analyze all claims not to be mind controlled and I don't see any evidence for the claims above.

Neil Brick's website and group is very much an example of the cult-like dynamic. If you looked at Neil Brick's website but somehow failed to see all of the examples of conspiracy theory and witch-hunt propaganda on it, you didn't look very hard at all. The cult dynamic of Neil Brick and his followers results from the fact that they refuse to look at the evidence that disprove their ideas of Satanic Ritual Abuse and Mind Control. They insist on the reality of stories of satanic cults that were investigated and disproved back in the nineties. They have set up a little network that distrusts all outside information, denigrates reports and studies that oppose their conspiracies, and seem to believe themselves endowed with special knowledge and a sense of importance given to them by their belief in their victimization. Any group that refuses information that might might force a re-evaluation of their dogmas begins to operate on a cult dynamic. A look at Neil Brick's website shows that he apparently finds credibility in the claims of Brice Taylor, Cathy O'Brien, and many others whose stories are equally insane. In fact, it would be interesting to know if there was ever a Sanic Panic story that Neil Brick felt was too unlikely to be taken at face-value. Such conspiracy theory driven groups are dangerous in that they are most certainly unhealthy for the mental state of their followers, and they set up an imaginary enemy upon which all evil is blamed. Arguably, the Protocols of The Elders of Zion played a direct role in the Jewish Holocaust, and there is little difference from the fact-less spiteful allegations of Jewish conspiracy in the Protocols, than those of satanic cult crimes written about on Neil Brick's website.

Thank you suture.

I think Neil Brick et al are interesting because you can indeed see the "cult dynamic" laid out there in plain view, and this can inform other discussions of cult process, but there is a more dangerous side to Neil Brick et al.

One can mock his delusion that he is a trained Manchurian-candidate-type killer, created by this bizarre Masonic cult that he describes, but one must then always wonder: if someone is insane enough to imagine themselves to be a trained killer even if no such training ever took place, how far do they carry out their fantasy? Brick does not just sit in a room by himself with his beliefs. He has collected a number of people to support, reinforce, and act on those beliefs.

Dale Griffis was a charlatan, claiming academic credentials that did not exist so that he could travel around the country inserting himself into local criminal investigations everywhere. He managed, for a while, to pull some credibility to himself from these local investigations which of course did involve genuine crimes, but he did a lot of damage in the process of feeding his own fantasy. He discredited important witnesses by pulling them into his circus before trials and he distracted naive people from genuine forensic evidence, creating confusion that inflates superstitious fear instead of establishing some strong boundaries between behaviors that are ritual or that are abusive.

I went back to this website and still can't find any evidence of a cult-like belief system. I couldn't find any membership, dues or meetings for this group or information on O'Brien. I do not agree with everything I found at this website and they do appear to have a set viewpoint, but many websites do this. To slap the label cult-like on groups that do not fit the criteria of a cult only damages the anti-cult movement. Comparing someone to the Nazis doesn't help either. I looked up Griffis on the web and found he was a respected retired former police captain involved in many cult cases.

cultsurvivor, do you actually believe that people who post in this forum have knowledge of cults limited only to websites?

You are baiting for more information with the kind of accusing tone, especially your characterization of Griffis, that suggests to me you have a dog in this fight. Are you a member of Brick's "cult survivor" club? Is that the kind of cult survival you are into?

What on earth does the existence of dues and membership have to do with identifying a cult? If anything, the absence of such can be suspicious because normal organizations openly post what it will cost to join and what the status of membership entails. Look over this forum, cultsurvivor, and tell me how many of the discussions involve websites that are cultic. 95% of what you see in this board has to do with direct contact, direct victimization, and often from groups that have very slick and acceptable websites. Just look at almost any Scientology website, for example. Perfectly acceptable appearance.

Griffis was exposed many times over for having fake credentials. One can certainly see a lot of bias from the satanic idiots in their criticisms of Griffis, but in fact he DID fake his credentials and he did interfere in active investigations in an extremely unprofessional manner.

QUOTE:
Riordan contended that Carson’s false testimony on the stand helped set the stage for self-described “occult expert” Dale Griffis to introduce the idea that the murders contained elements of Satanic ritual, directly provoking waves of panic and hysteria in the public. Since his 1994 appearance at the trial, Griffis has been discovered to possess fraudulent credentials issued from a now-defunct mail order university that required no sort of classes to be taken. from [www.americanchronicle.com]

Griffis brought the Neil Brick Show into town in his wake, seeking out frightened parents and other members of the community wherever a high-profile teen crime took place and he suckered them into the now-discredited forms of hysterical memory-recovery etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2010 11:01PM by dsm.

Now here is a more extensive look at dale Griffis, and I want to tell you something: I hate the occult stuff. I hate those people and what they have done in my community, but I do know that this article is telling the truth about several things: one, is that there are many unrelated and benign forms of ritual that are neither Satanic nor Christian and two, Griffis was both incompetent and a liar.

[www.witchvox.com]

Notice the spread of activity that is described as "satanic" according to Griffis and the Brick crowd, and compare it to the things anti-Christians say about us. It is as absurd to suggest that a Catholic has much at all in common with a Bible belt extremist like Dave Koresh or Joel Osteen as to suggest that someone who observes seasonal cycles and cleanses a room with sage-smoke is the same as a death-metal punk-rocker.

In the cases that are cited by Griffis's critics, you should notice that the police professionals described satanic elements used by serial killers as "cover", these were just incidental signatures of the individuals and are meaningful to an investigation in identifying what happened in those particular murders, but they are not meaningful for identifying whole groups of people likely to kill others. Griffis deliberately undermined the kind of police work that could rely on such marks because he forced a situation in which now a killer is indeed more likely to get away with something that it would not be "politically correct" to examine.

editted to add link



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/05/2010 11:28PM by dsm.

"Cultsurvivor" - You really do lose all credibility when you insist on coming back, claiming you looked over Brick's website, and saw little to object to as a rational person. The problem is not that "I do not agree with everything I found at this website", or that "they do appear to have a set viewpoint", but that their entire premise is based on a dangerous witch-hunter's folklore that is not supported by any evidence whatsoever. For you to appear here trying to pretend that you are some moderate just keeping an open mind is laughable given the topic: you're defending as credible an organization headed by a man who claims to have been a brain-washed assassin for the illuminati-masonic conspiracy, an organization that perpetuates tales of massive satanic cult activity, and disregards as conspiracy any and all evidence that contradicts their delusions. If a homeless man on the street tells you that he is Napoleon, do you stop and say, "well, perhaps he is. Nobody has shown me that he is not. In fact, there is really no evidence that he is not Napoleon. He probably is Napoleon, then"?
Then, insultingly, you go on to misinterpret everything you replied to by saying "To slap the label cult-like on groups that do not fit the criteria of a cult only damages the anti-cult movement. Comparing someone to the Nazis doesn't help either."
As I already explained the cult dynamic at work in Brick's organization, perhaps you'd be so good as to at least explain what it is YOU mean by "cult" when you use that word? Apparently, in your world, cults demand regular dues? Recognizing the cult dynamic in organizations that claim to fight cults does not hurt the anti-cult movement. Organizations like S.M.A.R.T. hurt the anti-cult movement by associating anti-cult work and education with paranoia and delusion. At best, you're not helping anybody at all when the cult you are fighting is the imaginary creation of delusional paranoia. And just as you miraculously failed several times now to see the products of such delusion on Brick's website, you also failed entirely to understand my point regarding the Protocols of The Elders of Zion. This was not just some facile insult meant to compare Brick's group to Nazis - rather it illustrates my point as to how conspiracy theory can be terribly harmful, having a toxic effect on society - the witch-hunt effect... the effect Brick's group would have if it found itself taken seriously...