jj, you are making some amazing posts, I think you are a genius at figuring out all this stuff from the inside! That is very hard to do, you are fortunate you had enough sense to get out when you did. People get locked into these things for 10 years, even for life. Literally.

Now to vomiting.
The only way organics would make people vomit, is if it was contaminated with bacteria, as some organics are, as the juice is not pasteurized, etc. Recently the was an organic juice botulism problem, and many got very seriously ill, as in almost dying and being crippled for life. Very dangerous.

But I know of no evidence that organic food would lead to mass-vomiting, quite the opposite, as its just natural food. It might make people fart or get constipated, but that's about it.
But vomiting is an EXTREME reaction to injesting very poisonous toxins. Even food poisoning does not always lead to vomiting. That is an acute reaction.

So that combined with the erectile failure for many men, plus the fact NONE of this was reported to the health department, and was EXPECTED from the Byron Katie team, which was providing the food? That is profoundly disturbing, in many ways.
So was the juice contaminated?
Why is everyone was peer-pressured to eat the BK foods?

Is it possible someone could put a chemical or psychoactive substance into tea, juice, or foods?
Have there been other cases where large groups of people had their food tampered with?

For example, one expects a hotel like the LA Crowne Plaza Hotel would be outraged beyond belief if groups of people at their hotel were vomiting and the HEALTH DEPARTMENT WAS NOT NOTIFIED.
That is extremely serious.

So if anyone experienced group vomiting at a Byron Katie School or seminar event, or erectile dysfunction, or any other type of physical change, they need to immediately report that to the local health department, and to the hotel manager, for example at the LA Crowne Plaza Hotel, if an event was there. Make the reports to the authorities, dates, locations, and they will be investigated.
Its every citizens obligation to IMMEDIATELY report these types of things, so they can be investigated properly. That can save lives.

The people who run the Byron Katie seminars know this MUST be reported, but why have they not reported it?

People might use the metaphor..."don't drink the Kool-Aid" when referring to the Byron Katie LGAT system.

But that should be extended to don't drink the tea, juice, or foods onsite either.
As a rule, any type of vomiting, abdominal pain, erection failure, headaches, dizziness, etc, this all needs to be reported to the authorities immediately, in minutes.
And stop consuming any food-drink provided if that happens.
Get the hell out of there, and go to the Emergency ward if you feel horrible, contact the authorities and report the group vomiting so they can send a doctor in immediately.

Quote
jj52

The vomiting thing is really crazy, Anticult. You're right about that. At the time, it was like we were supposed to congratulate people for vomiting... what an accomplishment, right? I remember going into the restroom one afternoon and seeing three piles of puke... from 3 different people... it was so gross. Word went around that it was happening a lot more than that.

I've heard of people getting really sick when they make drastic, sudden changes in their diets. Especially when they go from a fast food diet to organic overnight... the shock to their systems is really dangerous, even deadly. I assumed that was what was happening to people. I really don't know.

People were "asked" to "voluntarily" give up their cigarettes, too. I think it was lucky for me I was a non-smoker, healthy-eater when I got there. Sudden changes like that must drive people out of their rational minds.

The erectile dysfunction thing is even more bizarre, to me. Very interesting.

-jj

Anticult,

NEVER thought of it that way! Very good point.

Why didn't the Crowne Plaza Hotel notify the health department?
Very good question. Makes perfect sense...

*speechless*

-jj

Helpme2times,

"Energy vampire" is exactly what I was thinking when I wrote it.

After reading that interview, do you think she's psychotic? I had an abnormal psych class in college, and I remember learning that speech difficulties go hand in hand with psychotic mental illness. It's just plain weird the way she talks in broken sentences, not full sentences, broken ideas...

I wonder if anyone ever did a thorough psychological evaluation of this woman. There she was, walking up to strangers and demanding to to know why they "are pretending not to know her"... and she was mistaken for being "enlightened", rather than insane?

She said that she saw fear in them, and she apparently thought that fear was why "they were pretending not to know her." Umm... hello? If some stranger walked up to me, took my hand, and asked me stuff like that... who wouldn't be afraid? Besides BK, that is.

-jj



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2008 01:59AM by jj52.

Found this on a blog:

"As Byron Katie says, a cult is two people agreeing."

Byron Katie says that, does she? Well, now we know what her definition of a cult is. What a convenient way to disguise her own cult status.

-jj

I've heard of people getting really sick when they make drastic, sudden changes in their diets. Especially when they go from a fast food diet to organic overnight... the shock to their systems is really dangerous, even deadly. I assumed that was what was happening to people. I really don't know.

Haveing studied diets, natural, whole foods, food chemistry, etc. for years, I can safely and adamantly say, no - people go through changes when they give up sugar, caffeine, crappy processed food, but it is not deadly - not ever. If that is the line of crap BK told you, then they are liars.

No, BK didn't tell us that. I read it somewhere, but like I said... I really didn't know. I just assumed that was what was happening. What BK told us was that the vomiting was due to The Work being so "powerful". She told us it was a sign of purging and purification... evidence that these people were really "getting it".

Thanks for the information. I appreciate it. So, sudden diet changes aren't deadly... but do they make you vomit?

(And I'm talking MASSIVE vomiting.)

-jj



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2008 06:30AM by jj52.

Byron Katie and the dangerous LGAT "PSI Seminars" have assocations.

[www.google.com]

PSI Seminars
[www.google.com]

______________________

There is also a thread about EST, Landmark and The Work.
Notice how they spread the lie that Byron Katie knew nothing before 1986, and the client can see this is bullshit, and they keep pressing the lies at her?

Did Byron Katie take her material from EST in 1986?
EST was also referred to as The Work, as he states.

Watch and learn for the weasel-word masters...don't EVER "drink the tea" from a Byron Katie facilitator salesperson.

I would not send my worst enemy to #2 Robert, talk about self-righteous arrogant dishonest sleazy weasel words...sleazel?
Where do these people get off thinking its "ok" to manipulate and deceive people like this?
They learned it from Byron Katie.

Poster #1 is listed as a LCSW. Licensed Clinical Social Worker.



EST, Landmark and The Work.
[72.14.205.104]
--------excerpts for analysis----------------
I need some help understanding the similarities and differences between The Work and what use to be known as EST and is now called The Landmark Forum. My roommate at the 2006 School in L.A. was a former participant in Landmark and spoke about the similarities to me.

I now have a new client in my therapy practice who also participated in EST many years ago. I gave her the Little Book of Loving What Is and the sample CD after our first session. Tonight, in our second session I asked her what she thought about it and she said, "Well she obviously participated in EST at some time in her life." I explained that Katie did not have any exposure to religion, spirituality, psychology, etc. before she "woke up to reality" and that The Work arose spontaneously from her experience in 1986. She said that EST was very big in 1986.

She proceeded to tell me that she was not interested in The Work and got very passionate in telling me about her history with what she called "organizational entities." She did not want me to recommend any workshops or other group experiences. She said that she knew that people who experience such workshops get very excited about it and want everyone else to go. She even used the term "proselytizing."

I explained to her that I had no interest in her going to any workshops and that The Work is simply a way to question stressful thoughts that I like to sometimes use in therapy. However, we certainly did not have to use it if she was not open to it. I found myself wanting to defend The Work ("The Work needs defending" -- is that true?) and quickly decided that it would be best if I started taking a more "traditional" approach to therapy with her. We shifted gears, and I began a "psychosocial assessment."

After the session I was saying to myself, "Wow! She really had a strong reaction to The Work." It appears that she has such a strong association with EST that she is completely closed to The Work (by the way, EST was also referred to as "the work"). At this point I have no intentions of doing The Work with her. I was actually thrown for a loop and am not sure what I am going to do with her now. My plan is to finish my assessment and work with her to determine her goals for therapy. Hopefully, I will come up with a treatment plan that is feasible and that she can agree to.

Anyway, any insight into this issue would be greatly appreciated. Again, I am interested in learning more about the similarities and differences between The Work and EST/Landmark. Also, how would you have handled this type of client reaction?

Billy

-----------------------------------------------
Hi Billy,

I had fun reading your post, mainly because I recognized a lot. Not easy huh? 'Difficult' clients :-D

I don't think your 'problem' has anything to do with Landmark or EST. The way I see it it's more underlying beliefs she or you might have like: I am right, my way (The Work/Landmark) is the best way, I know it better than you.

Some questions arised while reading this:

"Katie did not have any exposure to religion, spirituality, psychology, etc. before she "woke up to reality"" Is that true? On which planet did she live? :-D

Clients statement: "Well she obviously participated in EST at some time in her life."
An answer I would have considered (and of course I have time to think about it now):
"You know, you could be right and would you like to test the work for yourself?"

>She proceeded to tell me that she was not interested in The Work

Ok, that's clear enough. “Would you like to have a cup of tea?”

Other statements and answers which came up to my mind:
>She did not want me to recommend any workshops or other group experiences.

Thank you for your integrity. I hear from you that this is not working for you.

>and quickly decided that it would be best if I started taking a more "traditional" approach to therapy with her.

It would be best for who?

>"Wow! She really had a strong reaction to The Work."

You might want to turn this around: E.g. ‘Wow! I really had a strong reaction to Landmark/EST."

> It appears that she has such a strong association with EST that she is completely closed to The Work .
Interesting to turn this around also:
It appears that I have such a strong association with The Work that I´m completely closed to Landmark or EST.

And: she is completely closed to The Work . Is that true? She read the little book and listened to the sample cd.


>At this point I have no intentions of doing The Work with her

also interesting to turn this one around:

At this point I have no intentions of doing The Work myself (about her).

These are just some thoughts. The bottom line for me is that I would inquire my type of reaction. She seems to be clear enough.

Love,

Robert.


--------------------------------------

Beautiful!! What fun!! Thank you both.

Billy, your client is my guru :-)
Isn't she fabulous!! She reminds me of my favourite auntie.

What I get is like: Sit back and relax and allow her to Work me. Like a very powerful, delicious massage. No escape. Mmmmh ouch mmmmh ouch mmmmmmmmmh.

Love
Mimi.

-----------------------------------
Hello Billy,
I participated in a number of Landmark Education workshops and also BKI events. In answer to your request for info about similarities and differences between the two... KT refers to our "story" while Landmark calls it a "racket"--same meaning. Landmark is also all about each of us being 100% responsible for our feelings, our possibilities. Lots about having a future of great possibility. As I write this, I can hear KT saying, "Life Does Me". Or, "I am a woman without a future".

Instead of the 4 questions, Landmark asks, What is the cost of your story/racket?

----------------------------

Thank you to everyone. All of your responses were very helpful. I can certainly see how I was "reacting" to her. I can also see how I was creating a "story" (or "racket") about her and her reaction. She was very clear about what she did and did not want.

----------------------
I really don't give a flip how it works!
OH BOY! It works. MY FAVORITE!
Love, Jeanette

------------------------
Hey Billy and Grant and All,
I love this thread. I also did EST back in the early 70's. I kept doing more of it probably because there was this enormous guy named Grant who kept threatening to beat me up if I didn't bring more guests. No, sorry, I dreamed that. :) And don't you love it when someone is clearly not interested and they should be? I notice I often avoid even bringing it (The Work) up because I don't want to witness my investment in their response. HA!

I also love comparisons. It's just this, it's just that, etc. And speaking of RACKETS, here's what suddenly comes to (my admittedly bizarre) mind: The Work is just another form of Tennis. Ten-is where you start (remember the 0 to ten exercise, ten being most stressed?) When you think you've lost everything, there's no point and you have zero — and then you discover that zero is LOVE ! And, of course, you still get to SERVE. And have a BALL!!

Game, Set, Match (that).

Having a tournament of turnarounds,

All the bEST,

Love-40,

Alexander
-----------------------------



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2008 08:44AM by The Anticult.

Quote
The Anticult
Byron Katie and the dangerous LGAT "PSI Seminars" have assocations.

[www.google.com]

PSI Seminars
[www.google.com]

______________________

There is also a thread about EST, Landmark and The Work.
Notice how they spread the lie that Byron Katie knew nothing before 1986, and the client can see this is bullshit, and they keep pressing the lies at her?

Did Byron Katie take her material from EST in 1986?
EST was also referred to as The Work, as he states.

That is some scary shizz... the connect between BK and PSI, the attempted manipulation of that (happily) resistant client...

For the record, "Work" with a capital W is also used by Gurdjieffian groups. (I was in a particularly culty one of those in the mid '80s.)

This is a message for any readers of the Guruphiliac blog who might drop into this thread from the link on his blog. There is another thread here which has a lot of information about the alleged conflict of interest concerning Byron Katie and Guruphiliac Jody Radzik, and possibly Steven Sashen.
But they refuse to answer questions about this.

[forum.culteducation.com]

Steven Sashen involved?
[forum.culteducation.com]


but...the verdict is in.
Guruphiliac, Jody Radzik, is officially using his blog to shill for Byron Katie LGAT seminars.

There are new extensive comments being posted on his blog, by supporters of Byron Katie.
Meanwhile some serious critics of Byron Katie are censored from posting.
[guruphiliac.blogspot.com]

Guruphiliac, Jody Radzik has completely discredited himself when it comes to Byron Katie.
Must be a fair amount of money at stake?


There is an older post here that lists Guruphiliac (Jody Radzik) as a blog that protects certain Gurus in a conflict of interest.

[forum.culteducation.com]
"Mohan Singh/Michael Lyons has been scamming and conning like this for 25 years or more. Complaints have been made to the police. Evidently he still has not been imprisoned. He uses threats and violence to evade justice and avoids having his photo taken. Fortunately, there does seem to be an internet campaign against him but unfortunately certain sites that supposedly protect against guru abuse have not passed on information about Mohan over the years - these “bad”sites include Guruphiliac (Jody Radzik) and Guru Ratings (Sarlo) possibly because Sarlo is a staunch Osho supporter."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2008 10:34AM by The Anticult.

Anticult,

What a loaded conversation that was! Whoo. Where do you find this stuff?

First of all, shouldn't the experience this LCSW had with his client be confidential? Why is he sharing this? Holy cow... sounds to me like his client managed to spot that her therapist was a quack, set some boundaries, and he couldn't handle that much reality. So, he breaks her confidence to do The Work with whoever (probably not therapists), instead of looking for a credible source of information on EST and/or really listening to his client.

It's a shame that more therapists and psychologists aren't aware of Thought Reform, etc.

When I read about EST, I noticed the similarities between it and The Work, too. It was a real eye opener, for me. I read about a woman who ended up in a mental institution after EST... and still claimed it was the best thing she'd ever done in her life. She never was able to return to her former self, from what I read.

It's interesting that "Billy" was asking for help understanding similarities and differences between the two, but didn't get much information in response. Instead, The Workers picked apart his beliefs, thoughts, and perceptions until this matter was all about him, and no longer about the welfare of his client... or the validity of her concerns.

Is it a coincidence that BK "woke up" in 1986, when EST was booming? Is Byron Katie's story even the real story? Spontaneous combustion, or did she have a little help? It's weird how everyone in that discussion just overlooked this tidbit of information. Geesh, I hope this person's client finds a new therapist! Sounds like she knows what she needs... and this guy isn't it!

He says he didn't want her to attend workshops... but isn't that what The Work leads to? Had she agreed, I'm sure he would have helped her get to a seminar or two. Also, interesting that he found himself wanting to defend The Work. After attending The School, it's like a programmed knee-jerk reaction. How wonderful that he decided to use traditional therapy... like he is licensed to do!? Why didn't he think of that first?

Quote: At this point I have no intentions of doing The Work with her. I was actually thrown for a loop and am not sure what I am going to do with her now.

So, it's either The Work, or... what? Has he completely forgotten what he was educated to do? Is The Work his only option for therapy? People, I find this very, very disturbing. Why did he even go to college at all? Why not just skip education? After all, Byron Katie did it!

One person actually says that she doesn't think the problem has anything to do with Landmark or EST. Oh, really? And... just what are this person's credentials, pray tell? The rest of this person's post is a typical response from another Worker. You pose a situation, and they will be more than happy to pick apart reality for you, tell you which thoughts to question, and find ways to alter your perception of reality for the big agenda... get the client to do The Work.

I can almost guarantee it won't be too long before Billy is pushing The Work on this client again.

Isn't therapy supposed to be focused on the client's well-being-- and not a "massage" for the therapist? Shouldn't he be seeing her for who she really is: a former cult member who has been burned badly enough to recognize crap when she sees it, and who isn't willing to go there again? Oh... if there is any justice in this world, may this client find another therapist...

Several people told him that EST and The Work are basically the same! Hello, Billy?! Does this make you doubt BK's big fat story yet? What really happened in 1986?

Billy is a fast learner... before this conversation was done, he had already adopted Landmark's terminology to compliment his already loaded language. That Thought Reform... it's amazing. Things just go right in! People learn like sponges. Amazing.

This woman who said it's "MY FAVORITE" just put in a bid for the "I get it the most" prize. In conversation with students of The Work, it's common run into those people who participate for no other purpose than to show you how "evolved" they are. You're supposed to praise them for it.

At The School, BK took the time to read to us two dialogues... one from a cat, and one from a dog. The cat had a "story" about everything, full of suspicion, fear, and hatred. The dog was just a dumb yippy... food, food, outside, poop... no matter what he did, everything was his "favorite", "oh boy". It was designed to show us the difference between a person with a "story" (not doing The Work=miserable) and person without a "story" (doing The Work=happy.) This woman obviously wants the readers to believe that she is the dog. Gold star for Jeanette! I wonder how long after The School this woman posted this. I wouldn't even have remembered the dog/cat segment had I not read this.

Sadly, this is a better example of a typical conversation between students of The Work. Did Billy ever get his questions answered, really? Is he going to be able to help his client? Does he even understand confidentiality laws? Does he even know the occupations of the people he's taking advice from? Are his sessions with his client really all about him?

It seems to me like The Work is a catch-all for ex-cult members. Familiar, yet covert enough to not notice what's going on. This last guy says that he was harassed at EST, acknowledges the similarities, but somehow no one in the conversation appears to make the correlation. The rose-colored glasses just stay on. I'm totally intrigued... that he doesn't tell people about The Work because he doesn't like his own "investment" in their response!

Hello?

I remember shortly after leaving The School, people would ask me how it was, and I would swear that it was the best thing I've ever done. I didn't like that, either! Then, I would wonder why in the world I said that...?? It was an automatic response. I couldn't seem to help myself... and boy did I feel put off when people weren't as gung-ho as I was pretending to be... even though I didn't blame them for not wanting this crap! My mind was not my own. It took several months before I could tell people that BK wasn't worth their time, money, or effort... and feel good about it.

The thing I regret the most about my involvement with The Work is all the copies of her book I gave to my family and friends, and the times when I encouraged others to go to her events... even though I was harboring some serious misgivings about it all.

Ugh.

Going back and telling them I was wrong has been embarrassing. Most of them weren't interested anyway, thank goodness. I wish someone had just told me that there was something wrong with it... but if they had, I probably would have defended it with all my might... even though I knew it already. The defending and "proselytizing"... it was beyond me. I did it against my own will.

I've seen enough evidence here to know that I wasn't the only one who was programmed with the compulsion to defend and proselytize.

-jj



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2008 03:50PM by jj52.