I hope this doesn't post two times. I may have been logged off while typing this.

I found this board last night after I'd talked with someone I know that was involved in LifeSpring-in Hans training. It was interesting to me when I was told he was confronted by the other trainees concerning he was not out to create situations that would result in others lives to become better, but was about self-serving purposes.

I took the impact training about 12 years ago. Justin became a trainer shortly afterward.

I questioned my "Angel" (this is a person who enrolls you, then supports you through the program-mine was about being supportive in working me through my issues, not reaming me out) about the trainers. I was told they all had some professional training - some type of certification/degree. I learned by the time I was in lift-off that they did not. I was told Sally has a degree as a therapist (which is not nearly the same as a psychologist or psychiatrist). Back then, they were just starting the training to be a trainer phase.

Had I known before entering lift-off about the early morning phone calls, I'd not have entered. I was to have some surgery and was told to get a lot of rest and take really good care of myself to keep my immune system high. A previous surgery had not healed right, so it had to be redone. Anyway, due to the surgery site developing an infection and I was worn out-I dropped out. Then, except for transporting my children to and from school, the only hours I was awake other than that was from the time they came home until bedtime for two days, then I awoke without the alarm 2 hours before needing to go pick them up on the third day.

Before I ended Quest, I took a family member home, then when I got to a stop sign nearby, I could not remember where the road went. I was not sure which way to go. I KNEW I knew the area well. But I was so far into sleep deprivation that I could not process where either road went. SO, I kept to the direction that was populated and eventually got to an entrance to the freeway and I knew how to get home.

I was told there was a young trainee who rolled his vehicle on the way home. He dosed off behind the wheel. He was not injured.

I had some issues with the training. After I left, I refused to go back to complete Lift-Off. I could see the pressure to be part of the support team for the trainers. Once out of Quest and into Summit, a person could be part of the support team for Quest (that changed not too much later, as they had a training the support team had to take to be involved). There wasn't ANY WAY I was going to be one of the support staff in Quest during the "feed-back" session. It's one thing to be a friend with someone who notices a self-defeating behavior to lovingly bring to that person and work with them to overcome that behavior AND A TOTALLY different thing in how they give the feed-back in Quest. Also, what right did I have to "mess with other people's minds" when I wasn't professionally trained and have a degree?

I also felt I was more mixed up than when I went into the program.

Several years later, my husband decided our marriage wasn't working for him. True, it wasn't for me either, but I at least went to a counselor (but my husband refused to attend-I didn't know at that time he'd already met "She's just a friend").

After the divorce was final, I went into deep depression for over a year. When I came out of it, I'd lost my fear of rejection and "found" my "imp". Because of some circumstances that happened at that time, some statements were made to me in conversation that mirrored some things I remembered from Impact. It was only then that I realized there were a couple of things that did "work for me" in the training.

One was the chair pounding episode. BUT, had I taken the advice of a counselor years prior that was similar to that episode, I would have already taken care of the issue I was dealing with that day. My Angel and husband were waiting outside the door afterward when we took our break. The first thing they did was to grab my hands to see if I had any broken bones (I didn't, but they were red). Some people break their bones and some have broken the chairs.

My ropes course was a positive for me.

I did not make it through the Summit training the first time. I had to go back (no extra fees). My buddy didn't stay with me during the break. I went into the office and one employee took me into her office and was talking with me. I wanted to bail out and compared it to committing suicide. One of the trainers came in ANGRY that I was in there, told me to go find my buddy. I said I didn't know where she went and wasn't able to find her. All the trainer could do was treat me like a child who was being told to "Go to your room"-go find your buddy. The door was then closed and I know he was reaming out the office staff I was talking with. I grabbed my stuff and went out the door. But before I could leave, my car was surrounded by trainees. I was lucky when I backed out that nobody was hurt. I of course started to move slowly so they knew I was leaving, but then there was that one man who jumped on my hood and looked through the window trying to convince me to stay that just about was hurt when I turned the wheel and "gunned it" to get him off of my car. I was fearful that a trainer would come out before getting away and would start yelling at me through the window.

They say the doors are not locked. You can leave anytime. BS. If you leave your buddy gets told off (mine didn't as the group couldn't get me to stay, but I sure wondered where she went, she was there with someone else). The group is processed to believe if they really care about their "family", they will do anything to keep them there. That can mean that if you want to leave, they will create a wall of bodies. Thus, the reason I chose to leave during a break in my first Summit. In Lift-off-I just stopped making the morning calls and was woken up later that day I missed a call and asked if I was out. I groggily said yes. They left me alone after that (but not my husband).

As far as recruiting goes and office staff-they are also pressured to recruit. When the numbers are low for a "class", they are required to do cold calls to those who have been in the training in the past, but did not continue beyond the course and also people who had been in the orientation who had not entered the program. Also as the trainees, pressure to find more family & friends to attend.

Those who have been in the Quest training know about the "feed-back" night (Thursday, I think). One of the exercises to "peel back the layers of the onion". An abrasive way to let you know how you look on the outside to others. Hans was not part of the training (so many years since my training) I think it was 6 months. A young husband and father, who had been a missionary before he was married, committed suicide after that experience. His body was found in a ditch that ran along a farmer's field. The first training after Hans came back, a woman admitted she was suicidal. He lit into her at close proximity and loud enough for all to hear. He told her how selfish she was (and more). Then because I had chosen out of the program at home after "feed-back" and back into the program in the morning and admitted it the next morning, I was placed in the front of the room in front of everyone the next morning and Hans went at me until the first break. Other people in the room were crying with the things he was saying to me. Trainees approached me to make sure I was O.K. during the break.

You hear about Angels outside of this life - I think I had at least one with me during that episode. It was like I was the rose in the glass cover in Beauty & the Beast. I was shielded from the barrage of whatever Hans was saying to me, EXCEPT for the first couple of sentences. I wasn't aware of what was going on in the room until I heard people crying. When it started, Hans was standing next to me. When I heard the sobbing of others, Hans was standing in the aisle in the middle of the room.

Someone asked about Help vs Assist. I didn't see that answered. Help is something you do for others who neither wanted or needed what was given (many times done without asking if the deed was needed). Help is bad because: The person being helped didn't NEED it, the other being that people many times will find their own solutions to problems and gain strength from the process of solving it for themselves (which the helper deprives them of when they help). Assist is something you do when you ask the person if you can be of service and it's something they need. Of course, succor is a higher level than assist.

Another aspect I didn't see here (I guess it wasn't "called forth" in the trainings of people here) was that NO ONE is a victim. We always have choice. Someone brought up about a child being molested/raped. Hans stated the child can fight-can't remember what else was said, but people are never victims.

When a person wants to leave, accusations of not wanting to get rid of their self-defeating behaviors and past comes up. Also, that they are a drain on their families with self-defeating behaviors. Their examples teach their children the same thing. What kind of parent are they that they would not learn another way to deal with things so that they don't pass whatever they are doing to their children? Sucking life energy from those around you with self-defeating behaviors and complaining about things, but not taking action to resolve those issues.

Maybe I missed another part of the training that may have been mentioned elsewhere here-in summit. When people are voted a giver or taker. The voting is based on a set of values - Looking back, that the person appears to be like Christ. The person with the least amount of giver votes (most taker votes) is the weakest link in the group. The group will only move as fast as it's weakest link. Thus, the weakest person has a lot of pressure to conform, so as not to hold the entire group back from the benefits of the training. The groups that move through the training the quickest receive more teachings from the trainings/more experiences in the lessons taught. I was the only one in the room with 0 giver points. The weakest link.

A friend of mine who knew me for 15 or so years was FURIOUS when I told her about it. She stated I was one of the most giving people she knew. She begged me to stop going to that place. Don't go back. But I had been convinced that my self-defeating behaviors were causing problems in my marriage and for my children.

I also became weary when they started to use concepts from scriptures in the training. They were giving their own definitions. But it was so benign, I almost missed it UNTIL I was struggling and about to leave again in Lift-off (before I did leave). One of the staff members, who was also a trainer (but not in any of the trainings I attended) called and talked with me. He started to quote from the Book of Mormon and give his definition of what that meant pertaining to my relationship with my children as their mother. I grant you that we are to teach by example and mankind has free agency, but as far as I'm concerned, children should not have the right to totally make their own decisions without parents stopping them (it was looked at as being controlling and the ways of Satan) when our children were in Elementary School. I believe in drawing a line and when a child crosses it, they have consequences. Likewise, praise and rewards for appropriate behavior and actions.

Another thought from reading here-the getting out of your head and into your heart-go with the flow:
I saw it as instead of trying to process everything, live my life in such a way that I'm tuned in to the promptings of God(they talk about supreme beings), thus by inspiration, I will always do the correct thing, as I will spiritually know which is best.

HOWEVER, what I didn't like was them doing exercises in which I should just accept it and go with the flow. Do this new concept NOW. Just trust we know what we are doing and DO IT.

I believe in precept upon precept, line upon line. Working on one or two things at a time thoroughly, thus ingraining it into who I am before I move on. My belief is, if you do too many things at once, it turns out to be a "half-assed" job that is short term and in the end it all slips away and the person returns to how they were previously, or worse.

They move through each concept so quickly, that I didn't feel I was truly understanding and processing the path of development. I admitted to being confused. Thus, I was accused of using "confusion" as an excuse to not progress and do things differently in my life. Actually, I think by that point in Summit I was so tired that sleep deprivation had kicked in again.

My Quest graduation was a fight to stay on my feet. I was grateful my family was there and drove me home.

Only doctor prescribed medications are allowed during the training. No smoking, if you crave and can't leave chocolate alone, that is out also, etc. This isn't just during the lectures, this is from the day you enter until after your graduation. 24/7 for 4 days. They want you to find out by experience and from feed-back how you act during nicotine fits, etc. Sometimes you can't leave a meeting (like office personal) to go get a smoke. How are you during that meeting because you can't take a smoke break?

They challenge every belief system you have. If you open your mouth, they use it to challenge you in the training. If you don't open your mouth you are accused of not participating.

My opinion-Pathological liars do well, as they can BS there way through it and because they don't have the signs of guilt that come from lying, they slip through undetected.

So why do people stay in- those rewards and positive feed-back you get at the end of each sets of training.

LOL-my buddy in the 2nd Summit training-she was great. SO, in Lift-off when she was dealing with the death of her mother (lay her down, cover her with a blanket as if she is dead, talk to her mother...) I said something about You can do this (we'd had several talks and had become close). The trainer snapped around and wanted to know who the helicopter was. It was me. She finished with the process with my Summit buddy, then came over to give me a stern piece of her mind.

Ya, I learned to participate without exposing myself so much. Someone told me I'd made a huge shift (nobody changes, they shift and do things differently). I thought-BS, I've learned how to do some things differently, but for the most part I'd learned how to participate without exposing myself. I felt like a was dishonest with myself.

The counselor I saw before my separation/divorce and being required to take Love & Logic Training at work (during work hours) and my loosing my fear of rejection were the best things for me. There are several people who have seen the changes in me. I also FEEL healthier. I rarely become defensive now. I notice I speak up for myself now, instead of doing things as psychologist label - Gunnysacking and Pandora's Box. Doesn't happen anymore. The only time I don't take care of an issue when it arises is if I don't realize it's an issue at the time.

OH, and if you are not "moving" with the training, you are holding others back, thus you should chose out. But your buddy and "family" trainees are encouraged to assist you in moving with the group. SO, Impact teaches if someone is confrontational and in the one man who recently took the training, whose buddy didn't come back-chances are his nametag was taken away for two reasons-his buddy was no longer there (he didn't do enough to facilitate the progression of his buddy) AND he was holding the group back from progressing (the weakest link) due to being confrontational. PLEASE, don't take this as statements I'm making against you. I want others to see the way things are approached in the training and people are treated there.