Hi there,
I'm very interested in this topic and would like to know of other experiences related to it.
According to a psychiatrist I know, bipolar disorder is an inherited brain disorder that can be active or dormant. If dormant, several things can activate it, such as head trauma, emotional trauma, etc.
My family has a history of bipolar disorder, and a few have been diagnosed with it. My family also has a long history with est/landmark.

Anyone have anecdotal evidence of people activating bipolar disorder following est/landmark trainings?

You may have your evidence right in front of you. Were their disorders diagnosed before or after participation in Landmark or Est?

Also, find people in the Psychological community to talk to about this. However, they will not be able to give you certain details because of client confidentiality. I have discussed psychological issues surrounding Landmark with a person that I know in the psychological field and the person did mention an incedent with someone who had been involved in Landmark and that many counselors have counseled people who have participated in Landmark. Now I have no idea whether their clients had bipolar disorder.

Landmark creates a hypomanic state for a lot of their participants.

Watch my videos on youtube and you will get some info there.

In my case I was in a hypomanic state from april to july the year I participated with landmark. I had never been in that state before.

To say that bipolar disease lies dormant - I don't know much about that. I think even non bipolar people tend to get overly excited after they have been participating with landmark - Landmark tells them that they can become all powerful - a lot of people go bonkers and think they will become the president of the world and set everything straight.

The problem is that the landmarker is now speaking a new language that people don't understand. They will say that "people are running their racket" and such stupidities.

Usually after the initial high you may experience after the landmark forum and the advanced course you will come back down to normal - but normal is then often experienced as depression. So some people get some "bipolar light" disorder. Often psychiatrist will diagnose them as bipolar since they have reported being high (often doing things that manic people do) - hence they are misdiagnosed.

Let me start by saying that MANY OF my relatives (and not just my immediate family) have genetic predispositions towards both bipolar and unipolar (sometimes called 'clinical') depression. As such, I've truly been one of the lucky ones in my Family to have only had brief tastes of mild versions of both -- like a 'Preview of Coming Attractions' if I didn't change course, somehow. It scared the piss out of me, too, for by THAT time I'd seen full blown cases of both disorders in my family -- and I SURE didn't want to go THERE! At the risk of sounding repetitious, I feel so freakin' fortunate that I never had to go onto a regimen of Lithium or Prozac in order to be a happy and productive member of society. My Sister and some of my Kin were not so lucky.

And now I more fully realize how I was playing with fire when taking est 30+ years ago -- not knowing the difference between bipolar disorder and a polar bear at the time. It wasn't until I read scads of posts to this LGAT forum (PLUS watching Nettie's videos) that I began to see any parallels between the one truly scary hypo-manic episode I endured and the happier 3 week est-high I floated around with after the training. That's not to claim that they were mirror images of one another, but now I do see uncomfortable parallels.

It leads me to speculate that the life events just preceding Werner's "Golden Gate" transformation may have quite possibly been stressing HIM to the brink of hypo-mania, and that his realizations on the bridge officially landed him into that state of mind as well. What a surrealistically bizarre notion it is to speculate that Werner and his pals might've actually been looking for a way to simulate Werner's own path into hypo-mania when they put the training together. Anyway, that's merely my current 'working hypothesis,' but its an interesting one, don't ya think?

Well, genetic predispositions towards mania DO mean that the disorder lies dormant unless sufficiently triggered, and lots of things can trigger it. As an example, read some of Jane Pauley's book. In her case, a year of steroidal treatments for a bad case of hives triggered the disease. Given that, it sure isn't any stretch to imagine that doing the Danger Process/Fear Exercise at 1:30 in the morning can also trigger hypo-mania in some people genetically pre-disposed. Damn good thing for me that I couldn't quite get into the fear & screaming others sounded like THEY were feeling as we were lying on the floor. I might've come out of there hypo-manic after only the 1st HALF of the training.

Another thing that I have seen happen is what LGAT trainings can do 'for' people who already know that they're bi-polar. In this case, they can come out feeling so good, or just so freed-up, that they convince themselves that they don't need their lithium anymore, and then graduate right into the biggest manic episode of their lives up to that point. That happened to a friend of mine right after the training, who then went on a bizarre manic tear while not needing a lick of sleep for six days until he crashed. That put him into a state of more rapid up-cycling over the next few years, and during this time he married another bipolar est graduate, and the two would proceed to cycle-up in tandem. (I'll bet their sex-lives were interesting at those times -- she was a hottie -- and it probably kept him occupied screwing whereas without her, he might've gone out on violent rampages. Unfortunately, they both came to a tragic, manic end when they both cycled-up and took off in their car for San Francisco. I read about them in the national news after that, as they robbed a liquor store and were chased down by the police. In the end, he shot & killed a cop, then turned the gun on his wife and then on himself.

My Sister is another story. She is still alive, but that life is pretty much in ruins (and there, but for the Grace of God, go I). Ironically, she turned to est looking for help AFTER her 1st hypo-manic episode, not quite sure what it was she'd just come out of, and not knowing what est could potentially do TO her. Well, she graduated with 3 - 4 weeks of a more pleasant version of what she endured six months prior, interpreted that as being cured, and then went back for every danged course they offered to try and recapture that -- more 'Zen-like' (not)-- high. Then when est morphed into the Forum, she took that and really started going over the deep end. She became convinced that she was trainer material and started interviewing for paid staff positions at est. But by then, the company could tell she was really nuts, and of-course they never hired her for anything. In fact, she became radioactive to them (but then, that's how they respond to people who's brains they have fried). With that level of rejection she felt from them, during subsequent, more rapid cycling manic episodes she'd convince herself that Werner was even in love with her. She started seeing patterns in the TV video 'snow' late at night (when stations used to go off the air after 2 AM or so), telling her that Werner was calling for her to come join him, and as a couple they would go around the world transforming the planet together.

For a number of reasons, I ultimately had to cut off communication with her, and when it finally sank in to her mind that I'd truly 'cut the cord,' she called me up at 3 AM during her next manic episode and actually threatened my life. The epilogue to that sad saga was that I had her served with a protective order to try and protect my Family and myself FROM her.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2008 01:13AM by pauker.

Wow, Pauker! How profoundly sad about your sister... I have a similar story with my best friend (with whom I no longer have contact).

What I've studied in terms of mental disease lying "dormant" is such: It's called a "diathesis-stress" model of mental illness. Mental illness is inherited, or has a physiological component, but in many cases it isn't activated until some life stressor or external stressor happens, or stressors accumulate to a critical mass (for example, living in extreme poverty, or with an abusive parent...).

For example, psychotic illnesses will sometimes emerge during naturally stressful times of transition or rapid development such as adolescence. Another perhaps less obvious time of rapid development is in the 30's, when mental structures develop the ability to think dialectically. This corresponds with people being able to see "both/and" rather than categorically. This is the time when most will settle into relationships, work identity, a more or less stable life trajectory. This is also a time when Landmark seems to become more attractive, especially for people who, for one reason or another, aren't able to settle into a life trajectory. But in exchange for the momentary exhilaration, Landmark robs people of the ability to think dialectically. Freud said that healthy people can work and can love. After Landmark, you will see that an individual will begin to falter either in the relational or professional realm, or both, alternatingly. My friend, who is very intelligent and industrious, always managed to keep a job, but it never turned into something that tapped into her true potential because she became obsessed with the idea of developing her own "seminar". And, she has never quite managed to create or be in a long-term relationship.

When I went to my friend's graduation many years ago, the intro leader tried to tell us about how amazing her relationship had become, and was hinting strongly that her sex life had somehow skyrocketed. I spoke up and said that my relationship was already where I wanted and needed it to be, and didn't want some external factor messing with it. I was met with some pretty nasty looks from the plants.

Pauker, I am very interested in your theory that what Werner experienced on the Golden Gate was a manic episode.

Quote
Sulalee
...Another perhaps less obvious time of rapid development is in the 30's, when mental structures develop the ability to think dialectically. This corresponds with people being able to see "both/and" rather than categorically. This is the time when most will settle into relationships, work identity, a more or less stable life trajectory. This is also a time when Landmark seems to become more attractive, especially for people who, for one reason or another, aren't able to settle into a life trajectory. But in exchange for the momentary exhilaration, Landmark robs people of the ability to think dialectically. Freud said that healthy people can work and can love. After Landmark, you will see that an individual will begin to falter either in the relational or professional realm, or both, alternatingly. My friend, who is very intelligent and industrious, always managed to keep a job, but it never turned into something that tapped into her true potential because she became obsessed with the idea of developing her own "seminar". And, she has never quite managed to create or be in a long-term relationship.
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Yep, my Sister and I are also examples of this, in our own ways. For me, what good I got out of the old est training sped up my professional development, but seemingly at the expense of retarding my personal development. I was horribly self-absorbed during my esthole days, and really didn't start outgrowing the narcissism of my youth until about 10-15 years after the bell-curve. For Sis, est and the forum hammered her ability to function at either level, really. This isn't to totally blame LE for destroying her life (tho' it played its own part in the dance), for other factors and people also played a part in her demise. Then when I add in all the genealogical data I came up with showing bipolar disorder on one side of our Family, and rampant clinical depression on both sides -- you might say that in our clan, we're all potentially just an LGAT seminar away from some kind of manic 'event.' By the way, that Freud guy could have some great insights at times, couldn't he? Great quote and very applicable here.



When I went to my friend's graduation many years ago, the intro leader tried to tell us about how amazing her relationship had become, and was hinting strongly that her sex life had somehow skyrocketed.
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Well, there ya go --- big ol Red Flag there! And I wouldn't doubt that girl for one second, either, 'cause she was probably hypo-manic herself. (They DO that when they cycle-up, you know...)



I spoke up and said that my relationship was already where I wanted and needed it to be, and didn't want some external factor messing with it. I was met with some pretty nasty looks from the plants.
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I don't doubt that either.


Pauker, I am very interested in your theory that what Werner experienced on the Golden Gate was a manic episode.

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Like I said, just a hypothesis, but not at all implausible, and at least makes one stop to think. Besides, it makes for good exercise for the left hemispheres of us middle-aged former estholes.

Pauker - I feel for you and your family.

I posted a response to this thread a few days back (tried to) but my computer hang.

In short I said that a lot of landmarker's days are kind of bipolar;
- you wake up in the morning doubting landmark
- you have to "generate yourself as a landmark leader"
- you go to work (as staff or unpaid leader)
- you work very long days until you are pretty exhausted
- you "clear" yourself at night so you can sense some relief
- you go to sleep (if you can)
- you wake up the next morning and round it goes.

Staff members are overworked and underpaid. To make them do that you have a "clearing" strategy set up to keep the landmark technology firmly implanted in your mind. There is a point when landmark tells you that you yourself have to mind control yourself. That is what is called "generate yourself as a landmark leader".

Some staff members burn out quite quickly since they have to work their asses off meeting the "statistics" (enrollment figures).

I have seen forum leaders shift like the turn of the hand from seemingly omnipotent to "whiny little bitch" when the forum does not go their way. Then they usually blame the assistants for "not creating a powerful listening in the room" for them to lead the course in. The course supervisor will get a lot of shit from the forum leader.

This is all incredibly fascinating.

Pauker, I am so very sorry for what's happened with your family. I can see reflections of the same kinds of behavior in mine as well. The difference is, since all of my family were (are) est-holes, no one recognized any sort of problem. For those of us of the second est generation, it's been very damaging. One cousin in prison, another so mentally ill she can't hold a job or live on her own. And me struggling with all kinds of flavors of issues that I will spare you here.

The ability to think dialectically is so compelling. I certainly noticed that shift in my own thought processes when I was in my mid-thirties: I had a realization that my particular worldview could be completely different -- that nothing was black and white. It was actually very liberating. When I read the post above about this theory, I can totally see how my dad and aunts & uncles don't think that way -- how the narcissism never went away.

As far as Werner, I totally buy that theory. He exhibits so many signs of BP disorder, including having OCD, becoming violent, lack of need for sleep, pressured speech, etc. Add to that the fact that many people with BP disorder are incredibly creative and engaging, and there you go: a guru with a brain disorder and a talent for salesmanship. What a recipe, huh?

Thanks for all your responses. I'm considering the notion of talking with some members of my family about this, but I'm honestly afraid it'll lead to a huge rift and not sure it would be helpful to others of my generation who are affected.

Well, h_r, I think its great that you wish to talk to some in your family. Its a noble and a loving thing to do. Just "Make a Little Plan, Stan" and don't go about it willly-nilly or you just might cause a big rift in the family.There are a number of success stories here on Rick Ross' LGAT Board with folks trying to open a loved one's eyes -- but probably as many failure stories up here to learn from as well. Between the Landmark, the PSI and the Impact training threads, you'll be able to glean patterns of what angles work and what don't. Patience is probably the virtue that will come in handiest for you, however. When people fail at this slow, piecemeal kind of intervention, the lack of patience usually did them in, one way or another.

So, if you have not already, take some days to ingest more of these discussion threads here, and plan your strategy carefully. I'm doing the same thing with another family member now, and I sure hope what I'm doin' works. Otherwise, I'm certainly just talkting out my *ss here!

The more I thought about your post, the more I realize I answered in great haste. Sorry. I now see how much more precarious your situation is with a family of, and w/more than one generation of estholes. For, even if you execute a well thought out plan and rescue a couple of folks from their programming, you could still cause a huge rift in the family. On the other hand, you're potentially already facing creepy, Invasion of the Body Snatcher-esque scenes with your family where you may feel like the only one who hasn't been replaced by a pod.


Good luck, my friend. Hang in there.