R.B. Thieme - A Rebuttal
Posted by:
Imjustme
()
Date: January 15, 2008 11:16PM
It is ludicrous to name R.B. Thieme, and his ministry, as a cult.
There is no single incident in the history of Berachah Church which
can be charactarized as cultish, and I have been studying under
this man for 35 years.
It is the nature of such cult leaders as David Koresh and Jim Jones,
not to mention the Moonies, Manson, and the leader of the Heaven's
Gate cult that comitted mass suicide outside San Diego in 1997, to
become entangled in the personal lives of their followers, and almost
always there are sexual overtones in their behavior.
There is also some gimmick which is prominent in the cult environment,
such as the possibility of the rapture occuring on a specific date,
or some other impending event, the details of which are known only
to the cult leader. Many of them stockpile weapons to defend themselves
from some imagined assault from the government.
Pastor Thieme has a circle of friends in his congrgation, as one would
expect, but he does not, and never did, curry the favor of his congregation.
To the contrary, he even avoids flying to the side of an ill Christian,
declaring that it is not his personal ministrations that sustain the
members of his congregation, but the Word of God in their souls. He does
not even counsel them in matters of marriage, or personal problems for,
the same reason.
He further disallows any material of a political or social nature to be
handed out on the property of Berachah Church, for he insists that the
only purpose for that institution is the teaching of God's Word. How
it is applied is the business of each individual.
Furthermore; There never have been church sponsored social activities.
Members form allainces and friendships, and throw parties, or conduct
other festivities off campus, but never under the watchful eye of Bob
Thieme, or the auspices of the church. The one exception; once a year,
one New Year's eve, the ladies of Berachah bring delicious plates and
delicacies to the service, and we ring in the New Year together at
12:00 O'clock, after enjoying a 30 minute social bout. Then we sing
Aulde Lang Sine and adjourn.
Bob Thieme deigns to become deeply involved in the personal lives
of his flock, and makes it clear that his is not the authority, or the
right to dictate how they live their lives, or even what decisions they
make in that regard. His unwavering stand is that Bible Doctine is the
basis for our lives, and his sole responsibility is to study the Word
and teach what he learns to his congregation.
Pastor Thieme teaches with passion and dedication, and in the process
of doing so he says things that offend others, but these are not
topics or lessons that he has devised by himself, but those principles
that are extracted from God's Word. If they offend, then rightly so.
God teaches us to overcome our human corruption, and follow His path
through life, and by the very nature of that process, we learn things
that are intended to correct our misunderstanding and malpractices.
Just because the majority of Thieme's followers love and respect him
is no cause to condemn them as a cult, is it? I don't hear anyone
claiming that Billy Graham's listeners comprise a cult. Many men of
prominance command a considerable following, but they are not cult
leaders. Wesely, Moody, Pope John, and hundreds of other theologians
enjoyed the adoration of thousands, even millions, but they are not
accused of heading up a cult. Why Bob Thieme?
I have visited other websites on which a few individuals level their
hatred at Pastor Thieme, and most of them found their ire upon the
fact that their parents required them to attend Berachah Bible classes,
and they missed out on the social life with their friends. The have
identified Bob Thieme as the culprit and engaged in a campain to
slander him unfairly.
I suggest that these disenchanted people learned absolutely nothing
from the teaching of this man, as they were seething hatred and
resentment while he spoke. I am one of thousands who have grown
spiritually by leaps and bounds, and derived immeasurable benefit
from the faithful ministry of an honorable and dedicated minister,
Robert B. Thieme Jr.
There is no single incident in the history of Berachah Church which
can be charactarized as cultish, and I have been studying under
this man for 35 years.
It is the nature of such cult leaders as David Koresh and Jim Jones,
not to mention the Moonies, Manson, and the leader of the Heaven's
Gate cult that comitted mass suicide outside San Diego in 1997, to
become entangled in the personal lives of their followers, and almost
always there are sexual overtones in their behavior.
There is also some gimmick which is prominent in the cult environment,
such as the possibility of the rapture occuring on a specific date,
or some other impending event, the details of which are known only
to the cult leader. Many of them stockpile weapons to defend themselves
from some imagined assault from the government.
Pastor Thieme has a circle of friends in his congrgation, as one would
expect, but he does not, and never did, curry the favor of his congregation.
To the contrary, he even avoids flying to the side of an ill Christian,
declaring that it is not his personal ministrations that sustain the
members of his congregation, but the Word of God in their souls. He does
not even counsel them in matters of marriage, or personal problems for,
the same reason.
He further disallows any material of a political or social nature to be
handed out on the property of Berachah Church, for he insists that the
only purpose for that institution is the teaching of God's Word. How
it is applied is the business of each individual.
Furthermore; There never have been church sponsored social activities.
Members form allainces and friendships, and throw parties, or conduct
other festivities off campus, but never under the watchful eye of Bob
Thieme, or the auspices of the church. The one exception; once a year,
one New Year's eve, the ladies of Berachah bring delicious plates and
delicacies to the service, and we ring in the New Year together at
12:00 O'clock, after enjoying a 30 minute social bout. Then we sing
Aulde Lang Sine and adjourn.
Bob Thieme deigns to become deeply involved in the personal lives
of his flock, and makes it clear that his is not the authority, or the
right to dictate how they live their lives, or even what decisions they
make in that regard. His unwavering stand is that Bible Doctine is the
basis for our lives, and his sole responsibility is to study the Word
and teach what he learns to his congregation.
Pastor Thieme teaches with passion and dedication, and in the process
of doing so he says things that offend others, but these are not
topics or lessons that he has devised by himself, but those principles
that are extracted from God's Word. If they offend, then rightly so.
God teaches us to overcome our human corruption, and follow His path
through life, and by the very nature of that process, we learn things
that are intended to correct our misunderstanding and malpractices.
Just because the majority of Thieme's followers love and respect him
is no cause to condemn them as a cult, is it? I don't hear anyone
claiming that Billy Graham's listeners comprise a cult. Many men of
prominance command a considerable following, but they are not cult
leaders. Wesely, Moody, Pope John, and hundreds of other theologians
enjoyed the adoration of thousands, even millions, but they are not
accused of heading up a cult. Why Bob Thieme?
I have visited other websites on which a few individuals level their
hatred at Pastor Thieme, and most of them found their ire upon the
fact that their parents required them to attend Berachah Bible classes,
and they missed out on the social life with their friends. The have
identified Bob Thieme as the culprit and engaged in a campain to
slander him unfairly.
I suggest that these disenchanted people learned absolutely nothing
from the teaching of this man, as they were seething hatred and
resentment while he spoke. I am one of thousands who have grown
spiritually by leaps and bounds, and derived immeasurable benefit
from the faithful ministry of an honorable and dedicated minister,
Robert B. Thieme Jr.
Re: R.B. Thieme - A Rebuttal
Posted by:
claypot
()
Date: January 15, 2008 11:54PM
I honestly have no definitive proof one way or the other regarding Thieme and the ministry he oversees. However, this is one of the few well thought out statements I’ve read on this site.
An interesting point to further discuss is this: It appears that the internet has opened up doors for many to express their opinions. Once an opinion is expressed—whether it is factual or not—there will be those that “jump on the band wagon” and run with it. Other sites allow you to list a church as a cult without any background search by the website personnel: Just make a statement and it’s posted as true. This site seems gather many people that bash based on feelings rather than discuss based on facts.
Of course, I’m certain that many of the posts are legitimate, and I bet, yes, there have been many many many people hurt by churches and leadership. However, this is the first letter I’ve read about Thieme and the ministry he oversees that I’m actually willing to give some credence. Why? It is reasonable and direct; it is not accusational and slanderous.
Well written, Imjustme.
An interesting point to further discuss is this: It appears that the internet has opened up doors for many to express their opinions. Once an opinion is expressed—whether it is factual or not—there will be those that “jump on the band wagon” and run with it. Other sites allow you to list a church as a cult without any background search by the website personnel: Just make a statement and it’s posted as true. This site seems gather many people that bash based on feelings rather than discuss based on facts.
Of course, I’m certain that many of the posts are legitimate, and I bet, yes, there have been many many many people hurt by churches and leadership. However, this is the first letter I’ve read about Thieme and the ministry he oversees that I’m actually willing to give some credence. Why? It is reasonable and direct; it is not accusational and slanderous.
Well written, Imjustme.
Re: R.B. Thieme - A Rebuttal
Posted by:
Imjustme
()
Date: January 16, 2008 09:41PM
Greetings Claypot,
You raise an issue that certainly bears serious consideration, and one I have pondered
myself. I suppose that is the inevitable consequence of having such a prolific system of
communication. Like all other matters in this veil of tears, there is always a dark side
that will be exploited by those whose motives are nefarious and counterproductive.
May I say that it is a breath of fresh air to encounter a person who is able to put aside
their emotions, and will not accept just any slander without an intelligent rendering of
pertinent facts. Certainly, there are men in the ministry who are a disgrace to the
service of Jesus Christ, but I refuse to malign even them, much less lend an ear to
people who have a personal beef, and who react to the ministry of a man because of
their disenchantment, and for no substantive reason.
As you note, many of these posts are right on the mark, and expose actual cult activity.
This is a terrible reality in this world, and I have encountered it myself, but to accuse
a man of being a slavemaster becuase his congregation is devoted to him, and arrogant
because he is dogmatic in his teaching is the fooly of a fool.
How else should a man of the cloth teach The Scriptures, if not with confidence and
authority? I certainly wouldn't listen for a minute to a man who apologizes for his
forthright manner, or preempted his statements with; "I guess...", or "Probably...".
Put simply, if he doesn't know what he's talking about, he shouldn't be sheparding
the flock of God. This isn't to say men make mistakes, or misbehave in some manner,
but God will sort those things out. What matters most to me is; can I grow in the
knowledge of my Lord, and aspire to the coveted position of harmony with God, or
not? If those lofty pursuits can be achieved by hearing one man's teaching, then
whatever else may come to pass, of any nature, it is immaterial to the issue of
spiritual growth.
You certainly hit the nail on the head! Most people I have run across on the web who
diss Bob Thieme have a seething resentment based entirely upon some imagined
crime, but they are rooted in the fact that their parents enforced a strict adherence
to his teaching, and made them attend class. The vast majority of us attended every
night because we WANTED TO BE THERE, and for no transparent or shallow reason.
We digested Bob's teaching, and applied it, and the results were no less than
astounding. What he teaches WORKS!
If I may, I will post a second message that summarizes just a few of the real and
tangible benefits I have realized from Thieme's teaching. Mind you, Claypot, I am
not recruiting for Berachah, but some of these issues may be of interest to a serious
thinker who operated from a position of objectivity.
My compliments...
You raise an issue that certainly bears serious consideration, and one I have pondered
myself. I suppose that is the inevitable consequence of having such a prolific system of
communication. Like all other matters in this veil of tears, there is always a dark side
that will be exploited by those whose motives are nefarious and counterproductive.
May I say that it is a breath of fresh air to encounter a person who is able to put aside
their emotions, and will not accept just any slander without an intelligent rendering of
pertinent facts. Certainly, there are men in the ministry who are a disgrace to the
service of Jesus Christ, but I refuse to malign even them, much less lend an ear to
people who have a personal beef, and who react to the ministry of a man because of
their disenchantment, and for no substantive reason.
As you note, many of these posts are right on the mark, and expose actual cult activity.
This is a terrible reality in this world, and I have encountered it myself, but to accuse
a man of being a slavemaster becuase his congregation is devoted to him, and arrogant
because he is dogmatic in his teaching is the fooly of a fool.
How else should a man of the cloth teach The Scriptures, if not with confidence and
authority? I certainly wouldn't listen for a minute to a man who apologizes for his
forthright manner, or preempted his statements with; "I guess...", or "Probably...".
Put simply, if he doesn't know what he's talking about, he shouldn't be sheparding
the flock of God. This isn't to say men make mistakes, or misbehave in some manner,
but God will sort those things out. What matters most to me is; can I grow in the
knowledge of my Lord, and aspire to the coveted position of harmony with God, or
not? If those lofty pursuits can be achieved by hearing one man's teaching, then
whatever else may come to pass, of any nature, it is immaterial to the issue of
spiritual growth.
You certainly hit the nail on the head! Most people I have run across on the web who
diss Bob Thieme have a seething resentment based entirely upon some imagined
crime, but they are rooted in the fact that their parents enforced a strict adherence
to his teaching, and made them attend class. The vast majority of us attended every
night because we WANTED TO BE THERE, and for no transparent or shallow reason.
We digested Bob's teaching, and applied it, and the results were no less than
astounding. What he teaches WORKS!
If I may, I will post a second message that summarizes just a few of the real and
tangible benefits I have realized from Thieme's teaching. Mind you, Claypot, I am
not recruiting for Berachah, but some of these issues may be of interest to a serious
thinker who operated from a position of objectivity.
My compliments...
Re: R.B. Thieme - A Rebuttal
Posted by:
Imjustme
()
Date: January 16, 2008 10:20PM
Thieme has a genius I.Q., for starters, and perpared for the ministry with
12 years of college and seminary. He graduated Magna Cum Laude. It is
therefore no surprise that the man thinks "around corners", diametrically.
Let me explain; He has the unique ability to categorize and assign terminology
to a body of knowledge in such a way that stimulates thought in the hearer.
This technique produces wonderful results....
Let me pose one such principle; "Flexability in the essentials, infelxability in
the nonessentials".
Only Bible Dcotrine is "essential". All other matters are "nonessential". As
seemingly innocuous as this principle may sound, in appplication to
circumstances it has the immediate effect of stabilizing oneself and refocusing
on reality. Of course, it requires an extensive knowledge of the essential,
for those tenents must be summoned to displace worry, consternation, fear,
etc.
When we are maligned, or suffer injustice at work or elsewhere, or when some
minor disaster takes place, and we plunge into dispair or anger, this principle
brings the issue of Doctrine, and Divinely ordained thinking, to center stage.
For the person who is comitted to have God in their lives it demands a decision;
remain out of synch with God, or get with the program and start thinking God.
IT WORKS! Anger, worry, bitterness, fear....gone in a heartbeat! I know, this may
seem a minor issue, but with me at least, those sins are not so easily displaced
with right thinking by any other means. Those less practiced in managing such
issues NEVER escape from the dungeon of sin entirely, even though they may
stuff them down into the subconscious temporarily. They will eventually emerge
as compounded difficulties.
"Rebound" is Theime's vernacular for restoring the soul to fellowship with God, a
procedure cited in 1 John 1:9. It behooves the Christian to log as much time as
possible in fellowship, as in that status we comit Divine good, and come under
the influence of God The Holy Spirit. Sin bumps us out of fellowship, but simply
citing the sin to God restores us.
"The Mirror" of the soul alerts us that we are out of step, and need to get back to
square one, which usually means for me that I am getting sloppy about studying
Doctrine daily. With me, this alert takes the form of dissatisfaction with my
application of Doctrine. I am not so quick to apply the "Essential/Nonessential"
principle, not to mention rebound, and other issues.
Bob uses many terms and concepts that capsulize entire categories of critical
information, such as The Edification Complex of the Soul, Garbage in the
Subconscious, The Command Post of the Soul, The Privacy of the Priesthood,
The Royal Family Honor Code, The Arrogance Skills, and many others. All of
them find a place in my daily life, and have a proufound effect.
Bob Thieme isn't everone's cup of tea, so to speak, but he shouldn't be. Just a
relative few of the millions of Christians are assigned as his "flock". For those
who do acknowledge him as their spiritual teacher the fruits of his ministry
are substantial and enduring. He may be many things, but he is not a cult
figurehead, and he, himself, is the loudest voice in his vicinity against the
brainwashing of fellow Christians. He consistently taught the necessity for
Christians to be objective thinkers, and to utilize the Word of God in their
lives, not the skewed dogma of some wigged out fruitcake.
12 years of college and seminary. He graduated Magna Cum Laude. It is
therefore no surprise that the man thinks "around corners", diametrically.
Let me explain; He has the unique ability to categorize and assign terminology
to a body of knowledge in such a way that stimulates thought in the hearer.
This technique produces wonderful results....
Let me pose one such principle; "Flexability in the essentials, infelxability in
the nonessentials".
Only Bible Dcotrine is "essential". All other matters are "nonessential". As
seemingly innocuous as this principle may sound, in appplication to
circumstances it has the immediate effect of stabilizing oneself and refocusing
on reality. Of course, it requires an extensive knowledge of the essential,
for those tenents must be summoned to displace worry, consternation, fear,
etc.
When we are maligned, or suffer injustice at work or elsewhere, or when some
minor disaster takes place, and we plunge into dispair or anger, this principle
brings the issue of Doctrine, and Divinely ordained thinking, to center stage.
For the person who is comitted to have God in their lives it demands a decision;
remain out of synch with God, or get with the program and start thinking God.
IT WORKS! Anger, worry, bitterness, fear....gone in a heartbeat! I know, this may
seem a minor issue, but with me at least, those sins are not so easily displaced
with right thinking by any other means. Those less practiced in managing such
issues NEVER escape from the dungeon of sin entirely, even though they may
stuff them down into the subconscious temporarily. They will eventually emerge
as compounded difficulties.
"Rebound" is Theime's vernacular for restoring the soul to fellowship with God, a
procedure cited in 1 John 1:9. It behooves the Christian to log as much time as
possible in fellowship, as in that status we comit Divine good, and come under
the influence of God The Holy Spirit. Sin bumps us out of fellowship, but simply
citing the sin to God restores us.
"The Mirror" of the soul alerts us that we are out of step, and need to get back to
square one, which usually means for me that I am getting sloppy about studying
Doctrine daily. With me, this alert takes the form of dissatisfaction with my
application of Doctrine. I am not so quick to apply the "Essential/Nonessential"
principle, not to mention rebound, and other issues.
Bob uses many terms and concepts that capsulize entire categories of critical
information, such as The Edification Complex of the Soul, Garbage in the
Subconscious, The Command Post of the Soul, The Privacy of the Priesthood,
The Royal Family Honor Code, The Arrogance Skills, and many others. All of
them find a place in my daily life, and have a proufound effect.
Bob Thieme isn't everone's cup of tea, so to speak, but he shouldn't be. Just a
relative few of the millions of Christians are assigned as his "flock". For those
who do acknowledge him as their spiritual teacher the fruits of his ministry
are substantial and enduring. He may be many things, but he is not a cult
figurehead, and he, himself, is the loudest voice in his vicinity against the
brainwashing of fellow Christians. He consistently taught the necessity for
Christians to be objective thinkers, and to utilize the Word of God in their
lives, not the skewed dogma of some wigged out fruitcake.
Re: R.B. Thieme - A Rebuttal
Posted by:
Imjustme
()
Date: January 17, 2008 08:16PM
Incidentally, I merely cite the previous samples of Thieme's teaching as a demonstration
that he is not teaching other worldly nonsense and doomsday blather. His messages
may be somewhat unorthodox by some standards, but they are hardly the drivel that
charactarize a cult.
that he is not teaching other worldly nonsense and doomsday blather. His messages
may be somewhat unorthodox by some standards, but they are hardly the drivel that
charactarize a cult.
Re: R.B. Thieme - A Rebuttal
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: January 21, 2008 06:26AM
To im:
You can run, but you can't hide. Why don't you "stick to what has actually been said"?
im quote: Let's stick to what has actually been said,
Truthtesty: Let's stick to what has actually been said - you can start with what Thieme said about "Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich" and "haima".
Now im, I have no time for your false accusations, your false attacks, nor your childish remarks. No one else does either. This young lady needs help and counseling, not that it's her fault. She certainly doesn't need your parroting of Thieme. You have already admitted on another thread on this forum:
im quote"i'm only hanging around here to converse with kcjones, then I'll be a big chicken and scram."
Just because you don't like the truth about Thieme's falsehoods being revealed, don't be running around trying to handout advice when you can't even "stick to what Thieme did say".
Thieme was controversial, confrontational and he lied. Thieme brought the the heat to himself.
But let's stick to what Thieme did say:
Thieme quote BOC:
Thieme BOC As proof that there are others who understand that the blood of Christ is figurative, permit me to quote Arndt and Gingrich, the latest Greek lexicographers. Under the word haima, “blood,” they devote an entire paragraph to the figurative uses of the word. They describe it as “the blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice, especially the blood of Christ as the means of expiation.” Expiation is paying the penalty for sin, and Jesus Christ did not bleed to death to pay the penalty for sin.
Truthtesty:
Arndt and Gingrich "haima":
haima
1. lit.---a. of human blood J 19:34 etc... hemorrhage (cf. Lev 15:25, 20:18)
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
b. of blood of animals Hb 9:7,18,25 etc... It's use as food is forbidden (cf. Lev 3:17, 7:26f, 17:10)
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
2. fig--- a. as the seat of life (Lev 17:11, Wsd 7:2, Jos., Ant 1, 102) etc... shed blood = kill (Aeschyl.; Gen 9:6, 37:22, Lev 17:4,13, 1Km 25:31 al.;... Luke 11: 50, Acts 22:20, Rom. 3:15 (Ps 13:3, Is 59:7) Rv 16:6, Luke 11:51, Mt 23:20, Rv 16:6, 18:24, 17:6, 19:2, (1Km 9:7), 6:10, Pol 2:1, Mt 27: 4,24, Heb 12:4, (cf Heliod 7,8,2 ...) ...
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1---Esp of the blood of Jesus as means of expiation Rom 3:25... Eph 1:7, (Col 1:14 v.1.). Of the high priestly sacrifice of Jesus Heb 9:12,14; 10:19, 1 J 1:7, Rev 1:5, 5:9 etc...
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
3. of the (apocalyptic) red color, whose appearance in heaven indicates disaster etc...
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
Truthtesty:
Arndt and Gingrich: b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1---Esp of the blood of Jesus as means of expiation Rom 3:25...
So to determine the figurative usage of "blood and life" as an expiatory sacrifice compare 1Cl 55:1 with Rom. 3:25.
1 Clement 55:1 says
1Clem 55:1
But, to bring forward examples of Gentiles also; many kings and rulers, when some season of pestilence pressed upon them, being taught by oracles have delivered themselves over to death, that they might rescue their fellow citizens through their own blood. Many have retired from their own cities, that they might have no more seditions.
[http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-lightfoot.html]
Truthtesty:
You can understand the true figurative usage meant by Arndt and Gingrich. In this case is that "haima" represents more than just literal blood it also represents[/u] literal blood and literal life sacrificed. The figurative usage of "blood" by Arndt and Gingrich is the word "blood" being used to figuratively point to the ruler's own literal "blood and life" as an expiatory sacrifice. Arndt and Gingrich are saying the figurative usage of haima in this case is that "haima" represents more than just literal blood it also represents literal blood and literal life sacrificed.
Arndt and Gingrich goes on:
Arndt and Gingrich: b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1---Esp of the blood of Jesus as means of expiation Rom 3:25...
So comparing the Arndt and Gingrich's figurative usage properly as in comparison with Cl 55:1 we see that the figurative usage of "blood" by Arndt and Gingrich is the word "blood" "haima" being used to figuratively to point to Jesus' own literal "blood and life" as an expiatory sacrifice (not just blood alone). Thieme is jumping to a false conclusion to provide false evidence for his false theory of "spiritual death only" and in doing so is attacking the blood of Christ. Ardnt and Gingrich do not understand or agree with Thieme's false "figurative" teaching.
You can compare and see that Arndt and Gingrich's figurative usage haima in both cases 1Cl 55:1 with Rom 3:25, is the same figurative usages, although obviously used with different people.
Therefore Thieme's conclusion that this in some "sense" supports Thieme's false theory of "spiritual death only" and Thieme's false theory that "haima" is figurative and does not refer to literal blood, is not substantiated by the evidence of Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich.
Bauer Arndt Gingrich: b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1---Esp of the blood of Jesus as means of expiation Rom 3:25
According to to Bauer Arndt Gingrich, Jesus did bleed his literal shed blood and give his life as means of expiation.
Thieme lied.
So im, let's stick to what has actually been said. You can start with what Thieme said about "Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich" and "haima".
Truthtesty
You can run, but you can't hide. Why don't you "stick to what has actually been said"?
im quote: Let's stick to what has actually been said,
Truthtesty: Let's stick to what has actually been said - you can start with what Thieme said about "Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich" and "haima".
Now im, I have no time for your false accusations, your false attacks, nor your childish remarks. No one else does either. This young lady needs help and counseling, not that it's her fault. She certainly doesn't need your parroting of Thieme. You have already admitted on another thread on this forum:
im quote"i'm only hanging around here to converse with kcjones, then I'll be a big chicken and scram."
Just because you don't like the truth about Thieme's falsehoods being revealed, don't be running around trying to handout advice when you can't even "stick to what Thieme did say".
Thieme was controversial, confrontational and he lied. Thieme brought the the heat to himself.
But let's stick to what Thieme did say:
Thieme quote BOC:
Thieme BOC As proof that there are others who understand that the blood of Christ is figurative, permit me to quote Arndt and Gingrich, the latest Greek lexicographers. Under the word haima, “blood,” they devote an entire paragraph to the figurative uses of the word. They describe it as “the blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice, especially the blood of Christ as the means of expiation.” Expiation is paying the penalty for sin, and Jesus Christ did not bleed to death to pay the penalty for sin.
Truthtesty:
Arndt and Gingrich "haima":
haima
1. lit.---a. of human blood J 19:34 etc... hemorrhage (cf. Lev 15:25, 20:18)
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
b. of blood of animals Hb 9:7,18,25 etc... It's use as food is forbidden (cf. Lev 3:17, 7:26f, 17:10)
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
2. fig--- a. as the seat of life (Lev 17:11, Wsd 7:2, Jos., Ant 1, 102) etc... shed blood = kill (Aeschyl.; Gen 9:6, 37:22, Lev 17:4,13, 1Km 25:31 al.;... Luke 11: 50, Acts 22:20, Rom. 3:15 (Ps 13:3, Is 59:7) Rv 16:6, Luke 11:51, Mt 23:20, Rv 16:6, 18:24, 17:6, 19:2, (1Km 9:7), 6:10, Pol 2:1, Mt 27: 4,24, Heb 12:4, (cf Heliod 7,8,2 ...) ...
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1---Esp of the blood of Jesus as means of expiation Rom 3:25... Eph 1:7, (Col 1:14 v.1.). Of the high priestly sacrifice of Jesus Heb 9:12,14; 10:19, 1 J 1:7, Rev 1:5, 5:9 etc...
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
3. of the (apocalyptic) red color, whose appearance in heaven indicates disaster etc...
(then lengthy paragraph - including scriptural references, authors, and references to individual author's writings)
Truthtesty:
Arndt and Gingrich: b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1---Esp of the blood of Jesus as means of expiation Rom 3:25...
So to determine the figurative usage of "blood and life" as an expiatory sacrifice compare 1Cl 55:1 with Rom. 3:25.
1 Clement 55:1 says
1Clem 55:1
But, to bring forward examples of Gentiles also; many kings and rulers, when some season of pestilence pressed upon them, being taught by oracles have delivered themselves over to death, that they might rescue their fellow citizens through their own blood. Many have retired from their own cities, that they might have no more seditions.
[http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/1clement-lightfoot.html]
Truthtesty:
You can understand the true figurative usage meant by Arndt and Gingrich. In this case is that "haima" represents more than just literal blood it also represents[/u] literal blood and literal life sacrificed. The figurative usage of "blood" by Arndt and Gingrich is the word "blood" being used to figuratively point to the ruler's own literal "blood and life" as an expiatory sacrifice. Arndt and Gingrich are saying the figurative usage of haima in this case is that "haima" represents more than just literal blood it also represents literal blood and literal life sacrificed.
Arndt and Gingrich goes on:
Arndt and Gingrich: b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1---Esp of the blood of Jesus as means of expiation Rom 3:25...
So comparing the Arndt and Gingrich's figurative usage properly as in comparison with Cl 55:1 we see that the figurative usage of "blood" by Arndt and Gingrich is the word "blood" "haima" being used to figuratively to point to Jesus' own literal "blood and life" as an expiatory sacrifice (not just blood alone). Thieme is jumping to a false conclusion to provide false evidence for his false theory of "spiritual death only" and in doing so is attacking the blood of Christ. Ardnt and Gingrich do not understand or agree with Thieme's false "figurative" teaching.
You can compare and see that Arndt and Gingrich's figurative usage haima in both cases 1Cl 55:1 with Rom 3:25, is the same figurative usages, although obviously used with different people.
Therefore Thieme's conclusion that this in some "sense" supports Thieme's false theory of "spiritual death only" and Thieme's false theory that "haima" is figurative and does not refer to literal blood, is not substantiated by the evidence of Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich.
Bauer Arndt Gingrich: b. blood and life as an expiatory sacrifice 1Cl 55:1---Esp of the blood of Jesus as means of expiation Rom 3:25
According to to Bauer Arndt Gingrich, Jesus did bleed his literal shed blood and give his life as means of expiation.
Thieme lied.
So im, let's stick to what has actually been said. You can start with what Thieme said about "Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich" and "haima".
Truthtesty
Re: R.B. Thieme - A Rebuttal
Posted by:
Imjustme
()
Date: January 21, 2008 09:15PM
LOL!
You can cite Biblical and extra-Biblical references all you like, dude, and they
have absolutley no effect on me. I could care less. Unlike yourself, wretched
soul that you are, I don't make a career out of discussing Bob Thieme. The
only reason I came here was that you visited one of my Christian websites
recently, and I clicked on your path.
I discovered that you also came to another blog of mine in 2004, now defunct, and
left a slanderous residue there inviting me to come to your website to "learn what
Bob Thieme is really like!"
You have been doing this for years haven't you? You have consumed an enormous
amount of time and energy, posted countless messages, and even created at least
one website rife with volumes of derrogatory information about the object of your
hatred. Bob Thieme has unwittingly commandeered a large portion of your time,
hasn't he?
I find that wonderfully ironic.
Any balanced, normal person would survey all of this furious activity and ask; "What's
the big deal?". We all disagree with other people, maybe even hold them in contempt,
but the normal person may utter a few epithets and move on. You, on the other hand,
have waged a ceaseless campaign for years against one man, just because your
parents made you sit in Bible class.
And WHY????? To save the world from this man you claim is a miscreant? Well, as you
have found out, the only people you attract, other than an occassional passer by such
as myself, are other boo boo birds with a lifelong beef to motivate them.
Man, what a lousy motivation! In all of your ranting, claiming Thieme is wrong, you
blythely overlook the fact that you break every commandment that the Bible cites
against gossiping and maligning others. I could cite a dozen verses here commanding
us not to indulge in sins of the tongue, but I won't waste my time. It would have no
effect on you whatsoever.
So go ahead, bub, diss Bob Thieme all you want. Rant and scream to everyone who
will listen. Dream about him, think about him, write about him, consume your life
with your scurilous endevors. I DON'T CARE!!! Niether do the Thiemes. They are
actually blessed by your conduct.
In the mean time, you need to visit a therapist. You display pronounced symptoms
of dementia and an associative disorder. Anyone who obsesses about something
as much as you do is headed for a serious and permanent mental condition.
This is my last post in response to your mindless blather. Thanks for a very entertaining
couple of days. It always profits a man to be reminded that there are loonies in the
boonies, and we can give thanks that we haven't fallen into the same ditch.
You can cite Biblical and extra-Biblical references all you like, dude, and they
have absolutley no effect on me. I could care less. Unlike yourself, wretched
soul that you are, I don't make a career out of discussing Bob Thieme. The
only reason I came here was that you visited one of my Christian websites
recently, and I clicked on your path.
I discovered that you also came to another blog of mine in 2004, now defunct, and
left a slanderous residue there inviting me to come to your website to "learn what
Bob Thieme is really like!"
You have been doing this for years haven't you? You have consumed an enormous
amount of time and energy, posted countless messages, and even created at least
one website rife with volumes of derrogatory information about the object of your
hatred. Bob Thieme has unwittingly commandeered a large portion of your time,
hasn't he?
I find that wonderfully ironic.
Any balanced, normal person would survey all of this furious activity and ask; "What's
the big deal?". We all disagree with other people, maybe even hold them in contempt,
but the normal person may utter a few epithets and move on. You, on the other hand,
have waged a ceaseless campaign for years against one man, just because your
parents made you sit in Bible class.
And WHY????? To save the world from this man you claim is a miscreant? Well, as you
have found out, the only people you attract, other than an occassional passer by such
as myself, are other boo boo birds with a lifelong beef to motivate them.
Man, what a lousy motivation! In all of your ranting, claiming Thieme is wrong, you
blythely overlook the fact that you break every commandment that the Bible cites
against gossiping and maligning others. I could cite a dozen verses here commanding
us not to indulge in sins of the tongue, but I won't waste my time. It would have no
effect on you whatsoever.
So go ahead, bub, diss Bob Thieme all you want. Rant and scream to everyone who
will listen. Dream about him, think about him, write about him, consume your life
with your scurilous endevors. I DON'T CARE!!! Niether do the Thiemes. They are
actually blessed by your conduct.
In the mean time, you need to visit a therapist. You display pronounced symptoms
of dementia and an associative disorder. Anyone who obsesses about something
as much as you do is headed for a serious and permanent mental condition.
This is my last post in response to your mindless blather. Thanks for a very entertaining
couple of days. It always profits a man to be reminded that there are loonies in the
boonies, and we can give thanks that we haven't fallen into the same ditch.
Re: R.B. Thieme - A Rebuttal
Posted by:
Imjustme
()
Date: January 21, 2008 11:46PM
Of interest to anyone happening by here; You will read copious denunciations
of Bob Thieme from just a few posters. I advise you to consider the source, and
more importantly, the nefarious motives of these individuals. Hatred and malice
are motives that no practicing Christian should indulge, and there is no other
reason for these slanders.
For every one of these naysayers there are literally thousands of people who
study Bob Thieme's tapes and have enormous respect for this man.
As for myself, I do not lionize him because of his person, and certainly not his
demeanor. He can be caustic and brutally frank, but I have yet to discover one
serious flaw in his reasoning. This is due mostly to the fact that he documents
every word he says, whereas these detractors love to cite Biblical references,
but have absolutely no theological education that compares to Thieme's 12
years of matriculation, from which he graduated with honors.
The reason I am so vigorous in my defense of Bob is not my personal friendship
with him. I have only spoken to him briefly on several ocassions. But his impact
on my life has been profound, and this is the unshakable cause of my admiration.
I stumbled across his ministry shortly after returning from Vietnam, and my life
was a shambles. In the beginning I had reservations, but from the first weeks
studying under him my world started to change for the better.
I went through a period as a so called "Thiemeite", got a whitewall haircut, and
generally acted like an idiot. But over the years that followed it finally sank in
that he doesn't claim an elevated position as a Christian, and he expects no
man to worship him. He adamantly does not want adulation, and he has said as
much many times. His total focus is on the Word of God, and his thrust is to help
those who listen to him to do the same.
As the Word began to play a larger role in my life my focus definately shifted
from Thieme to Jesus Christ. I began seeing Bob as merely a messenger, and
to understand that his role is to teach us what the Bible says, and no more.
Naturally, those who admire him for his skills and faithful teaching come to
respect him, but with spiritual growth comes a more balanced view of Thieme
as a person, and the secondary part he plays in our daily lives.
The proof is in the pudding, so they say, and this is why no slander, or hateful
malice, will ever dislodge me from my opinion of this man. I put my trust in
him, and applied what he taught, and my life has blossomed and flourished
in a wonderful rapport with God. This is evidence that is real and tangible,
and I profit from it every day. I do not place my trust in Thieme merely
on principle alone, as I once did, but in the amazing results that his teaching
have engendered. Of course, it hasn't been HIM that brought these blessings
to pass, but God, using Bob as an agent. This is the arrangement that God
engineered, for the enlightenment of His children, the Royal Family.
Yes, there have been people who fled from Berachah Church in a huff, and many
of them harbor a grudge. Thieme can be tough, and he is merciless when it comes
to protecting his congregation from gossipers and trouble makers. This is his
responsibility, to keep the focus on Bible Doctrine, and vanquish those who
distract serious students of the Word.
The people on this site, and others, who malign him base their hatred on personal
issues, and usually because their parents required them to attend Bible class. Any
clear thinking individual will agree that this is less than a valid motive for their angst,
yet they rant and rave, scream endlessly about nonissues. Some of them are fixated
on one or two subjects, yet they ignore the thousands of hours of teaching, and
hundreds of principles, which comprise the whole of his ministry.
They have absolutely no evidence that Thieme caused even one person harm that
wasn't the byproduct of their own poor decisions, their faulty thinking. Their inuendo
is based, once again, on dishonorable motives. They are a disgrace to the name of
Jesus Christ, Who councelled love and forgiveness, even for those who might be less
than honorable.
I don't spend alot of my time cruising the web, defending my pastor. I have better
things to do than joust with people who can't be turned from their dark course.
But I wandered in here and read the slanders against Thieme, and I at least
wanted to put the record straight for the sake of any unwary travelers that might also
come here, not knowing the facts, and who might tend to accept these lies as
the truth.
If anyone is curious, or undecided, order some of Bob's tapes from www.berachah.org
and listen to him for a couple weeks. He doesn't believe in charging money for the Word
of God. It should be available to even the poorest Christian. Decide for yourself is he is
legit. By all means, don't take the word of people whose only goal is to discredit an
honorable man.
You know the old adage; You can judge a man by his enemies. That, alone, should be
a reliable tip off. Any man whose words and actions are driven by bitterness and hate
is certainly not a man who should be taken seriously. By the standards of this saying,
and the scurilous nature of these individuals, Bob Thieme is a spiritual titan.
I rest my case. Thank you to those of you who have given my thoughts consideration.
I hope your own relationship with God will lead you in the paths of truth, and aid you
in avoiding the pit of loathing and abomination.
of Bob Thieme from just a few posters. I advise you to consider the source, and
more importantly, the nefarious motives of these individuals. Hatred and malice
are motives that no practicing Christian should indulge, and there is no other
reason for these slanders.
For every one of these naysayers there are literally thousands of people who
study Bob Thieme's tapes and have enormous respect for this man.
As for myself, I do not lionize him because of his person, and certainly not his
demeanor. He can be caustic and brutally frank, but I have yet to discover one
serious flaw in his reasoning. This is due mostly to the fact that he documents
every word he says, whereas these detractors love to cite Biblical references,
but have absolutely no theological education that compares to Thieme's 12
years of matriculation, from which he graduated with honors.
The reason I am so vigorous in my defense of Bob is not my personal friendship
with him. I have only spoken to him briefly on several ocassions. But his impact
on my life has been profound, and this is the unshakable cause of my admiration.
I stumbled across his ministry shortly after returning from Vietnam, and my life
was a shambles. In the beginning I had reservations, but from the first weeks
studying under him my world started to change for the better.
I went through a period as a so called "Thiemeite", got a whitewall haircut, and
generally acted like an idiot. But over the years that followed it finally sank in
that he doesn't claim an elevated position as a Christian, and he expects no
man to worship him. He adamantly does not want adulation, and he has said as
much many times. His total focus is on the Word of God, and his thrust is to help
those who listen to him to do the same.
As the Word began to play a larger role in my life my focus definately shifted
from Thieme to Jesus Christ. I began seeing Bob as merely a messenger, and
to understand that his role is to teach us what the Bible says, and no more.
Naturally, those who admire him for his skills and faithful teaching come to
respect him, but with spiritual growth comes a more balanced view of Thieme
as a person, and the secondary part he plays in our daily lives.
The proof is in the pudding, so they say, and this is why no slander, or hateful
malice, will ever dislodge me from my opinion of this man. I put my trust in
him, and applied what he taught, and my life has blossomed and flourished
in a wonderful rapport with God. This is evidence that is real and tangible,
and I profit from it every day. I do not place my trust in Thieme merely
on principle alone, as I once did, but in the amazing results that his teaching
have engendered. Of course, it hasn't been HIM that brought these blessings
to pass, but God, using Bob as an agent. This is the arrangement that God
engineered, for the enlightenment of His children, the Royal Family.
Yes, there have been people who fled from Berachah Church in a huff, and many
of them harbor a grudge. Thieme can be tough, and he is merciless when it comes
to protecting his congregation from gossipers and trouble makers. This is his
responsibility, to keep the focus on Bible Doctrine, and vanquish those who
distract serious students of the Word.
The people on this site, and others, who malign him base their hatred on personal
issues, and usually because their parents required them to attend Bible class. Any
clear thinking individual will agree that this is less than a valid motive for their angst,
yet they rant and rave, scream endlessly about nonissues. Some of them are fixated
on one or two subjects, yet they ignore the thousands of hours of teaching, and
hundreds of principles, which comprise the whole of his ministry.
They have absolutely no evidence that Thieme caused even one person harm that
wasn't the byproduct of their own poor decisions, their faulty thinking. Their inuendo
is based, once again, on dishonorable motives. They are a disgrace to the name of
Jesus Christ, Who councelled love and forgiveness, even for those who might be less
than honorable.
I don't spend alot of my time cruising the web, defending my pastor. I have better
things to do than joust with people who can't be turned from their dark course.
But I wandered in here and read the slanders against Thieme, and I at least
wanted to put the record straight for the sake of any unwary travelers that might also
come here, not knowing the facts, and who might tend to accept these lies as
the truth.
If anyone is curious, or undecided, order some of Bob's tapes from www.berachah.org
and listen to him for a couple weeks. He doesn't believe in charging money for the Word
of God. It should be available to even the poorest Christian. Decide for yourself is he is
legit. By all means, don't take the word of people whose only goal is to discredit an
honorable man.
You know the old adage; You can judge a man by his enemies. That, alone, should be
a reliable tip off. Any man whose words and actions are driven by bitterness and hate
is certainly not a man who should be taken seriously. By the standards of this saying,
and the scurilous nature of these individuals, Bob Thieme is a spiritual titan.
I rest my case. Thank you to those of you who have given my thoughts consideration.
I hope your own relationship with God will lead you in the paths of truth, and aid you
in avoiding the pit of loathing and abomination.
Re: R.B. Thieme - A Rebuttal
Posted by:
Truthtesty
()
Date: January 22, 2008 10:34AM
To im:
Semper Fi?
Keep running Marine. Keep making excuses for Thieme. You can blow positive smoke all day about Thieme, it still doesn't turn Thieme's lies into the truth.
You didn't "stick to what Thieme said." You could not handle the truth. I think your doing the right thing leaving - If you can't back it up, then pack it up.
Here' a suggestion, perhaps the next name you choose on a forum should be "Imjustyella".
Another thing you haven't proven jack, except you have a big mouth that supports Thieme's lies.
So keep running from the turth and the facts that I showed you about how Thieme lied, bub.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
Truthtesty
Semper Fi?
Keep running Marine. Keep making excuses for Thieme. You can blow positive smoke all day about Thieme, it still doesn't turn Thieme's lies into the truth.
You didn't "stick to what Thieme said." You could not handle the truth. I think your doing the right thing leaving - If you can't back it up, then pack it up.
Here' a suggestion, perhaps the next name you choose on a forum should be "Imjustyella".
Another thing you haven't proven jack, except you have a big mouth that supports Thieme's lies.
So keep running from the turth and the facts that I showed you about how Thieme lied, bub.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
Truthtesty
Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed.