I just got out of a 10 day Vipassana retreat with Goenka and found, by comparison and body reactions to what I experienced before, to be a very cultlike, manipulative, brainwashing environment. I looked at what Rick Ross wrote about characteristics of a cult and they were very strong.

What was interesting is that outside of the 10 days, it doesn't seem to be a cult. The people seemed fine and were ok with disagreements. But within that 10 days it seems extremely cultlike.

It's simply that their instruction method is such: isolate, remove support, put blame on you if you have doubts and even threaten to kick you out, and increasingly throw Goenka's framework and dissing of other methods at you after you're in a vulnerable space from a week of silence, slight lack of food, lack of sleep and pain. There is a very masochistic element to it, promising liberation if you just do it more and more. I was increasingly triggered based on my background. Others found it positive, however. From surveying the negative responses out there I would say that most people seem grateful, but some feel damaged by it and there has been other mention of this.

One person wrote a long treatise of this at http://harmanjit.blogspot.com

What are others experience of this, if there are? And what do you think of the idea of "temporary cults" - cult environments that are just for an intense but temporary time. A lot of weekend workshops can be like that.

Even short(weekend or week long) but intense workshops can negatively affect a person's mental health.

I attended some years back a week long NLP course, at first I enjoyed it but about a month later I started having all sorts of nasty inter personal issues and bouts of helplessness, confusion, that persisted for a year, etc. Mind you the trainer was using all sorts of covert hypnosis during the 12 hour a day, week long course.

Another short course I took was a two day Sufi Meditation seminar which was not overtly cult like but used a lot of cult indoctrination techniques. Lots of chanting, staring into each other eyes for extended periods, weird breathing techniques that put people into estatic states, etc. Lots of folks didn't have a positive time either. From my research the teacher(Puran Bair) was sort of legit but evidently invented his own meditation sytem and borrowed heavily from 3HO. Which is really bad.

Here's the thing real Sufis don't use estatic states, they are generally frowned upon because students can develop a addiction.

Bottom line, short courses can be just as pernicious as a long course depending on the trainer.

My advice to folks is this; if you attend a seminar start feeling nauseous, weak or just don't like whats going on - Leave!

If you attend a seminar and everyone is getting some sort of emotional high at the same time and you're feeling like you've won the lottery - Leave.

Both are symptoms of maniupulation by the trainer.

I never attended anything led by Goenka or according to Goenka's methods.

However, I have done week long Zen retreats (totally different format) and done one 7 and one 10 day long Vipassana retreat at a place dedicated to Theravedan Buddhist meditation.

Here are potential issues:

Goenka's method was and is rooted in the traditional meditation retreat methods done for centuries by Theravedan Buddhist monks. During the monsoon seasons, these monks stayed in their monasteries or forest hermitages, so as not to ruin the planted rice crops by walking out and crushing the plants. These rainy season times were dedicated to study and to long periods of seated meditation, either alone or in groups.

Later, in revival movements, ways were found to make ten day long meditation retreats available to non monastics and from this background, Goenka came up with his method.

This said, there are potential concerns:

1) It is not at all unusual for peoples sleeping patterns to change during a meditation retreat, even when led by a quiet and steady teacher. Typically the first few days are rough because in a quiet retreat space, away from the noise and distractions of everyday life, sleep deprivation can catch up with many persons. I remember nearly falling off my cushion many times due to sleepiness and many others in the group had the same reaction. Must note that this has nothing to do with the ideology of the retreat. Back when I was a Catholic and made silent retreats, I would spend the first few days nodding off. At the end of one such retreat two other people said they reacted the same way.

2) As a silent meditation retreat progresses and the days pass, one may need less sleep and wake up earlier and earlier in the morning. Id see more and more people show up early at the dining hall as the week went on--collectively, on our own we were awakening earlier.

**This change in sleep wake cycle and routine can be enough to trigger bipolar episodes in persons who are genetically loaded for this medical/psychiatric condition.

Two different persons with bipolar told me that it can be hazardous for some with bipolar to try and wake up and start the day before sunrise, even if on medication and even if one has obtained 8 hours of good quality sleep. If a person tries to wake up and follow the routines of a group whose routines start before dawn, they can risk triggering a bipolar episode.

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If you attend a seminar and everyone is getting some sort of emotional high at the same time and you're feeling like you've won the lottery - Leave.

Quite right. I did three different insight mediations, two led by quiet teachers and no one seemed to get hetzed up. I stayed calm too.

However, there was a third teacher who generated a different climate. To this day I do not know if X attracted high intensity people as a group, or what. But unlike the two other insight retreats, this third retreat was full of people who reported wild experiences.

Ordinarily I was quiet during retreats and yet at this one, to my own suprise, my own mind went into overdrive. Found myself craving to write, craving to talk, and this was totally out of my normal pattern when on these things.

So I agree with the person who wrote above---if you feel keyed up and wired and notice others getting wound up, and this is NOT your usual baseline--leave early and make sure you have a way to get out. If you have to stay (some retreat places are in wilderness areas) then find ways to go on hikes and avoid the group activities where everyone else is getting hetzed up.

Two, people are very sensitive during and after retreats. There can be a kind of wild insta intimacy.

Do not make any important decisions regarding love, money or career during or after one of these retreats.

If this is supposed to be a Buddhist retreat or retreat center, do NOT let anyone persuade you to add anything to your practice that isnt Buddhist.

Advaita Vedanta is not Buddhist. It postulates an inherantly separately existing Atman or Absolute, whilst Buddhadharma does not postulate any inherantly-separately-existing Absolute, Essence, Brilliance or First Principle. Karma is understood very differently in Buddhadharma vs the various schools of Hinduism.

So if you are doing vipassana this is a method that originated from the earliest Buddhadharma and is not compatible with Advaita Vedanta. Any teacher who tries to tell you this isnt the case is using sloppy technique.

Two if you find you want or need therapy, please get a therapist who has zero connections with your retreat center and is not friends or business associates with any of the leaders. It is important for therapists to avoid conflicts of interest (aka dual relationships) and a retreat center or meditation community should not be used as a referral source.

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http://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?4,92106,92391#msg-92391

One Buddhist Center's Advice to Members Who are Therapists and Helping Professionals

A licensed therapist should not use membership in a church, dharma center or ashram as a way to shop for clients/business. Ditto for yoga teachers, etc.

As an example of an unusually detailed examination of this by one Buddhist center, here is a quotation from guidelines that, in my opinion, ought to be considered a gold standard--and something worth discussing in courses for therapists as part of clincal training and continuing education.

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Quote:
Ethics Guidelines for Berkeley Zen Center
Adopted October 1, 2006 by the BZC Board

(Page 4)

Therapists and Helping Professionals

Sangha members are discouraged from using the community as a source ofbusiness or professional clients. We request that BZC (Berkeley Zen Center) teachers and sangha members who work as psychotherapists, physicians or attorneys avoid entering into professional relationships with sangha members.

Others in the helping professions are asked to be sensitive to the delicate balance between workerand client, and the possible complexity of dual relationships when both partiespractice at the same dharma center.

If by chance a therapist and client happen to be members of the same church or spiritual project, a therapist MUST be prepared to put the clients well being first and foremost, even if it means going against a guru or pastor or group. If a therapist refuses to imagine there could ever be such a conflict--that therapist is already compromised.

A very good remark from the ethics guidelines from the Berkeley Zen Center is as follows:

'In certain situations it is unethical to do nothing.'

[webcache.googleusercontent.com]

More discussions here

[forum.culteducation.com]

Advice to anyone attending what is verbally stated to be a Buddhist event or retreat.

Friends, be proactive and before you attend, read a text called the Mahaparinibbana Sutra.

This text is from the Theravedan Buddhst canon and is especially applicable to Insight Meditation or Vipassana for these are bested on the Theravedan tradition.

If you have the time for a retreat, you have the time to read this text. It will enable you to test for yourself whether an event that is advertised to be Buddhist meets the criteria or whether the teacher is putting material in there that has nothing to do with Buddhadharma at all.

The Parinibbana Sutra can be read here:

[www.accesstoinsight.org]

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31. And the Blessed One recovered from that illness; and soon after his recovery he came out from his dwelling place and sat down in the shade of the building, on a seat prepared for him. Then the Venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One, respectfully greeted him, and sitting down at one side, he spoke to the Blessed One, saying: "Fortunate it is for me, O Lord, to see the Blessed One at ease again! Fortunate it is for me, O Lord, to see the Blessed One recovered! For truly, Lord, when I saw the Blessed One's sickness it was as though my own body became weak as a creeper, every thing around became dim to me, and my senses failed me. Yet, Lord, I still had some little comfort in the thought that the Blessed One would not come to his final passing away until he had given some last instructions respecting the community of bhikkhus."

32. Thus spoke the Venerable Ananda, but the Blessed One answered him, saying: "What more does the community of bhikkhus expect from me, Ananda? I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back."

and

Buddha so it is told, gave final advice on how, after he was dead, the remaining community of practitioners should respond if someone came to visit offering teachings:

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Quote:
The Four Great References
7. And there the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Now, bhikkhus, I shall make known to you the four great references. [37] Listen and pay heed to my words." And those bhikkhus answered, saying:

"So be it, Lord."

8-11. Then the Blessed One said:

1) "In this fashion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might speak: 'Face to face with the Blessed One, brethren, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation';

or:

2) 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a community with elders and a chief. Face to face with that community, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation';

or:
3) 'In an abode of such and such a name live several bhikkhus who are elders, who are learned, who have accomplished their course, who are preservers of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with those elders, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation'; or:

4) 'In an abode of such and such a name lives a single bhikkhu who is an elder, who is learned, who has accomplished his course, who is a preserver of the Dhamma, the Discipline, and the Summaries. Face to face with that elder, I have heard and learned thus: This is the Dhamma and the Discipline, the Master's Dispensation.'

"In such a case, bhikkhus, the declaration of such a bhikkhu is neither to be received with approval nor with scorn.

Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should:

Trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline.

If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus:

1) 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance;

2) this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu —
3) by that community,
4) by those elders,
5) by that elder.'

In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it.

But if the sentences concerned are traceable in the Discourses and verifiable by the Discipline, then one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is the Blessed One's utterance; this has been well understood by
-that bhikkhu
or by that community,
or by those elders,
or by that elder.'

And in that way, bhikkhus, you may accept it on the first, second, third, or fourth reference. These, bhikkhus, are the four great references for you to preserve."

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What are others experience of this, if there are? And what do you think of the idea of "temporary cults" - cult environments that are just for an intense but temporary time. A lot of weekend workshops can be like that.

This is well worth pursuing further.

These retreats can tremendously sensitize people, and foster a feeling a tremendous initimacy. You dont just like people--you get bonded with them. And suggestions made by the teacher can take on a tremendous urgency.

In this state of mind, one can be vulnerable to recruitment if a teacher happens to have some sort of pet project that is non-vipassana and mentions it during what is supposed to be a vipassana retreat.

Note: the stuff I attended was non-Goenka. We were never at any time threatened with being kicked out. To me that sounds cruel and authoritarian.

And that does not sound at all the way Buddha taught or behaved.

However, this said, since these lengthy silent retreats so tremendously foster a bonding process, the teacher and the teachers recommendations take on a vastly enhanced influence.

It is therefore urgent that teachers not abuse this in any way.

A teacher who leads these kinds of retreats should AVOID

*teaching anything other that what Buddha clearly stated in texts

*Not mention other modalities that cost money--this brings the danger of insight meditation retreats being used as a point of recruitment for other ventures entirely.

*A teacher who leads these retreats should not accept students as therapy clients and should not refer students to friends who happen to be therapists.

Students who want therapy need to be advised to find therapists who have zero connections with the retreat center, per the guidelines suggested above by the Berkely Zen Center.

Asking people to donate based on

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'dana'

can be difficult. I find it easier and with less guilt ridden guess work if a center goes on a sliding scale with opportunities for work scholarships.

There should never ever be suspicion of financial favoritism.

A center should keep costs down while obeying local health and fire codes. Try to avoid being too plush or expensive. And maintain transparency where money is concerned.

Can tell you that from my time doing Vipassana at wilderness retreat centers, I came out of it feeling supersensitized, as though a layer of skin had been removed, leaving my emotions raw and tender and exposed.

I didnt just appreciate people--I adored them. People one sits next to for the retreat feel like bosom buddies--yet you do not really know them.

I remember exchanging phone numbers and email addresses and then feeling hurt to the core when Id leave people messages and they never replied, yet had been so marvellously friendly and adorable during the retreat.

A good pal who had been through a number of these told me, with a very wry smile,
'This happens surprisingly often. You think you have become best friends for life, you think you have formed a bond, and then after everyone leaves and returns home, all at once they dont want to communicate.'

'You did nothing wrong. What happens is that the environment intensifies everything temporarily.'

My friend eventuall stopped doing these ultra long retreats because he found it was triggering anxiety attacks.

I stopped going to these isolated retreats because I found it too difficult to adjust to life back home.

In a memoir written by Luna Tarlo, entitled The Mother of God, there is a detailed description of a vipassana type retreat in Bodhgaya, India led by a Western born teacher, back in the mid 1980s.

Tarlo was pressured to participate by her son, who was quite into this kind of thing. From Tarlo's description a dreadful situation erupted when one of the retreatants turned out to be in grave difficulties.

Tarlo's descriptions also convey how emotions can go into overdrive and become hypersensitized and how dangerous this can be if there is pre-existing discord between participants prior to the retreat and the retreat leader lacks ability to acknowlege the gravity of the sitaution and lacks adequate conflict resolution skills.

Speaking for myself, I cannot advise that anyone do a lengthy retreat of any kind, vipassana or anything else, unless in a place where one can easily leave and go home if the situation becomes too stressful.

And no one at any time should be threatend with expulsion nor should persons who decide to leave early be considered failures or be gossiped about after their departure or held up as bad examples to those who remain.

If anyone decides to leave, the retreat should arrange for someone to make sure the person is OK and to follow up by checking with them by phone or by letter after arriving home to see if they are OK.

(Note: this is not 'coddling'. This in legal terms is 'due diligence'. And in human terms it is called being a mensh and giving a damn about the welfare of ones fellow beings.

And in Buddhist terms its called honoring the three treasures--seeing to the wellbeing of your sangha by making sure anyone who has to leave early is well, and arrives home in peace and feeling supported and not pursued.

Repeat, this concern is not 'coddling'. This is treating others as persons, not as mere objects to use and dispose of.

Too often dharma is used to rationalize dissociatively splitting away from any empathy or concern for others as persons, lest this be too painful. Properly practiced and understood, Buddhadharma should support our ablity to bear the discomfort of being human. There's too much coldness and too little care in the world today.)

Perhaps Vipassana gets more cult like if someone gets into the inside circles I don't know. I've done the 10 day course and although it is intense in many ways I think that the no talking rule made me feel like I was essentially there by myself, so there was no feeling of group pressure on me. I basically came and did the meditation for 10 days and then left with very little verbal communication between myself and the other participants and teachers.

My main concern about Vipassana retreats isn't that it is a cult but more about the technique itself which I believe can open a can of worms for people that they aren't ready to deal with. Not only that but there is zero contact or support after the retreat (which seems kind of un-cult like to me) which means that people can be left alone to deal with the intense emotional issues that may have come up. I've since talked to other Buddhist teachers including some serious meditation monks in Thailand and they told me that this style of meditation should be applied at an advanced stage once a practitioner has already stabilized their mind by mastering concentration practices. This way they have the tools to deal with what comes up. So I don't think that the Vipassana technique is necessarily a bad technique in itself but I think that if it isn't applied at the right time under the right set of circumstances it can present more problems than it can solve.

Frogman gave us some valuable information--especially what he or she learned from discussing the ten day format with Buddhist monks.

1) It is advisable for people who are new to this to begin with half day, then one day and then 3 to 4 day silent meditation retreats. That is the best way to see whether this method works for you.

Here is an analogy to athletics:

One doesnt start out by running a full on marathon.

A sane and educated coach would advise

1) having a check up with one's physician, including a stress ECG. Two, one eases into training slowly.

2) Being fitted for appropriate shoes and buying a heart rate monitor, in addition to the obligatory shorts and t shirt.

3) Starting out slowly, with practice runs, to build up strength--and also identify foot troubles or knee and joint problems that were silent prior to one's becoming a distance runner.

An aspiring athlete also has to be taught how to recognize signs of dehydration and how much extra water he or she must learn to drink--and when one has had too much water, as well as too little.

Then one does shorter events, then half marathons, seeing how one's body and mind respond.

There are analogies between athletics and meditation, especially to doing long retreats. A ten day vipassana retreat is analogous to a marathon.

I'd like to agree with much of what was said above. In Theravada circles, there is a kind of movement of people who are really into Vipassana. Then a lot of other people in Theravada circles consider that it is being promoted too heavily and too quickly. Vipassana can be impressive because it can result in a lot of strong experiences and lead to breakthroughs. However it can also lead to instability and a lot of life problems. Traditionally it is said, as Frogman and Corboy said above, that one is supposed first to have done Samatha, to have developed some sort of meditative stability.

I'm also not keen on Vipassana being removed from the rest of Buddhism. Buddhism is an integrated path. It includes things like refuge, devotion and chanting. These are very important for harmonising and relaxing the emotions. The Goenka group has been criticised in particular because, traditionally, meditation teachers are supposed to have many years training and experience, like twenty or more. The Goenka teachers do not have this background.

Withe reference to what Corboy said, it is so well known with any retreat that you can be unrealistic. The most common one is that people plan to give up smoking so they don't bring any smokes! After the second day they realise that the retreat is actually quite stressful and they are begging the organisers to pick them up a carton in town. 'Retreat romances' are another well-known phenomenon. You fall in love with someone, convince yourself that it was meant to be, and then as soon as it's over you come to your senses.

Eloquence and scholarship are naught when used to serve an evil cause.

Remembrance Day is a week away.

Here is a sample of rhetoric from a younger Winston Churchill to justify a bad faith stance towards Turkey during the Great War and the chain of decision making that led to up to the slaughter at Gallipoli.

[www.britishempire.co.uk]

It is ugly for young and idealistic persons to be treated as expendables, whether in service to a guru's lust or to the ambitions of statesmen.