Hello everyone. I came here through a Google search about a church called “Liquid Church” in Morristown, NJ.

First a little history:

I am recently divorced from a 'born again christian'. We have one son, he is 4. As per our settlement she has him every Sunday morning after 10am so that they can attend church together. Initially I fought this just on the grounds that I wanted more time with him. Then I started to question the church she was attending. I told her I was going to go sit in on a service. She pleaded with me not to go. Her reasoning was she was afraid of a conflict breaking out during the service. I backed down.

This was a few months ago. Now my son, who again is 4, but is incredibly intelligent and very vocal is starting to tell me that he doesn’t want to attend. He just tells me it’s boring. I chalked it up to him being 4. But I’m noticing a growing.. obsession on my ex’s part on her and he being there. In her mind the CAN NOT miss a service. I asked for extended time on a Sunday, two weeks from now. But she tells me there is children’s choir practice starting between now and Christmas every Sunday. I went to their website and there is NOTHING about a children’s choir or a Christmas performance mentioned anywhere on the site.

When I Googled Liquid Church, the third Google entry was “Liquid Church, Cult” which led me here.

I would appreciate any and all information about the Liquid Church in Morristown. Anything about the pastors, child care, and church structure in general would be greatly appreciated. If this information can’t be provided here, is there a source I can get it from? I doubt showing up and attending a service at this point is going to do any good since I’m sure they’ll clam up around me. This has nothing to do with my ex-wife, whatever she wants to do with her life is fine. But if my son is in any danger, I will move to protect him.

Thank you in advance for your time.

malrenyolds, Here is a link to a recent forum on this church:

[forum.culteducation.com]

Hope that helps for now. I will continue to dig for you.

Here is a website run by the founder of Liquid Church, Tim Lucas.

[www.bighairpreacher.com]

This link:

[liquidchurch.typepad.com]

is a little more concerning for me. This looks like indoctrination in a more rigid way for children. Maybe I am reading this information wrong, but I don't like ANY church that makes you check your brain at the door and seeks to 'brainwash' children in a (sounds like to me) militaristic way.

From the link
(this is me, paraphrasing): "Parents, you get so much more time with your children to teach them scripture than we can, so we have to make every moment count when we have them in church!"

I think you need to go to that church, even if that means sitting in the back after the service begins so your wife doesn't see you. You have no idea what she told Tim Lucas. Perhaps she told him she is a widow. Bible-thumpers tend to look down on divorce. You need to see what she is exposing your son to.

I really hate "end of worlders", everything from the new movie "based on REAL Mayan prophecy! HONEST!" called '2012' to the JW's and other end of world religions which like many cults leads to mass suicide/murder.

I don't like it and for all christians let me say the Book of Revelation was written when the christian sect was being destroyed by Emperor Nero and his targeted christian prosecution. It kept the new faith together and allowed it to survive, but in my opinion that was it's ONLY function. Most fundamental christian (and muslim) groups believe in 'end times'.

Liquid Church is no exception.

This was written by Liquid Church's 'pastor' Tim Lucas on his BigHairPreacher website:

QUOTE: "End Times = Good Times."

Right. The screaming death of your family minister (who is mistaken in his thought on one verse of the bible that Tim Lucas disagrees with), your in-laws, your boss, your ex-girl/boy friends who are bible-believing christian but bowed on the wrong knee in prayer and read the wrong english translation are now burning in hellfire, etc. IS A GOOD TIME????!!!!

I HATE end-time people. Condemn me to your version of 'Hell', but I prefer to freeze in the Norse mythology than burn in the christian one.

P.S. Ask a Rabbi about the 'Hell' of Judism AND the AFTERLIFE FOR THE FAITHFUL....hmmmm. Food for thought.

My friend attends Liquid and it's 100% legitimate! They started off as a ministry of Millington Baptist Church in Basking Ridge NJ and became their own church a few years back (so in essence, they are a "child" of Millington Baptist). They also advertise on the local Christian radio station, Star 99.1 -- which has it's own check list before letting any church advertise with them!

They also just launched [liquidwater.com] (a 501c3 organization) which partners with the well known charity... Charity Water (http://charitywater.org) which was featured on American Idol early this year. In addition, they won the Avaya Communication Makeover (http://www.avaya.com/usa/campaign/makeover/winners.aspx) after submitting a video about Liquid Water.

They are a 100% Bible based Christian church.

In regard to the children's Christmas choir... they do have sign-ups listed on their site (www.liquidchurch.com) - just look at the fourth feature that pops up.

I don't know why your significant other wouldn't want you there but I would encourage you to go. I've visited before and no one "clams up around you." =) I like their tag line... "Faith is a journey, not a guilt trip."

To whom it may concern:

It isn't that difficult for an organization to be granted nonprofit religious status in the US.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.

1. Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

2. No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

3. No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

4. Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

5. There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

6. Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

7. There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

8. Followers feel they can never be "good enough".

9. The group/leader is always right.

10. The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.

1. Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.

2. Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.

3. Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".

4. Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.

5. Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.

6. Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.

7. A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.

8. Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.

9. Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.

10. Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.

Ten signs of a safe group/leader.

1. A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive.

2. A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know.

3. A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight.

4. A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them.

5. A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them.

6. A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened.

7. A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others.

8. A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem.

9. A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice.

10. A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas.

I think you'll find that Liquid Church does not fall into the "unsafe group leader" category -- and quite honestly, I'm not sure how that can be concluded. There is no "check your brain at the door" mentality - in fact, if you listen to the "Reasons to Believe" series... Tim encourages people to ask questions and specifically says do NOT check your brain at the door!

Also, in regard to the children's ministry, you'll see that the two kids directors come from the well known church, Willow Creek (in Chicago) where they were on staff. The children's ministry also used North Point's program (church led by Pastor Andy Stanley in Atlanta) after the staff attended the Drive conference in Georgia (which is attended by thousands of churches in the US).

This church puts themselves out there and they are very involved with the Christian community. They partner with VERY well known churches, share ideas, etc. They were asked (out of hundreds of churches) to speak at the Granger conference in Indiana (www.gccwired.com). Just look at some of the series that Granger has -- you'll find that Liquid has many of the same!

The church is also led by an Executive Management Team that is comprised of three people -- not just one! They encourage healthy debate and are one of the ONLY churches I've found that lead with grace and not judgment of others... following the example of Jesus. I mean look at their core values - Grace Wins, Truth is Relevant and Church is Fun (http://morristown.liquidchurch.com/pages/page.asp?page_id=53443).

All I can say at this point is... see for yourself. I think you'll find Tim Lucas, and the two campus pastors at the Morristown and New Brunswick campus to not only be legit, but some of the nicest people you'll ever meet.

Specific questions that can be asked about any church regarding accountability:

1. Does the church have a democratically elected government voted in by the general membership that serves fixed terms, i.e. a church board that handles finances and can fire a pastor if it becomes necessary?

2. Does the church publish an annual financial report that is distributed to all contributors, which discloses in detail all salaries, compensation and expenses?

3. Is the church accountable to an umbrella organization or denomination?

4. What are its educational requirements for pastors and staff?

It does not appear that all the pastors have formal theological educations:

See here:

[internetcampus.liquidchurch.com]

Click on the faces to read their bios. Most of the information is useless and jokey-jokey and all about their wives and children and pets. Only one pastor (Tim Lucas) makes any claim of formal theological training.

Only one Executive Pastor, Dave Brooks, appears to handle all the money by himself and claims to be a highly successful international investor.

The bio for Executive and Founding Pastor Tim Lucas says he founded Liquid Church 7 years ago. My guess is he is "Executive Pastor for Life" and is unaccountable to the congregation and may never be removed.

I am hopeful that lhardingly will respond to rrmoderator's posting above, especially the financial transparency and the democratically elected government.