Ray's brother is Jon Ray. Stephen Ray was a sweat lodge participant/victim.

@Yakaru,

Stephen Ray, mentioned above in reference to witness statements, is not Ray's brother. That's Jon C. Ray (who may have been on the bus in San Diego when Colleen Conaway died.

Apparently, Stephen Ray was only a participant at the sweat lodge.

By the way, mental breakdowns, decompensation, dissociation, psychoses, and other serious problems that lead to the emergency ward, happen ALL THE TIME at these LGAT seminars. Its not rare.
Why? That would be a complex question.
But as discussed in other threads, just the extreme STRESS alone, combined with severe sleep deprivation, fasting, triggering past traumas and PTSD, and many other things can lead a vulnerable person into a mental breakdown quite rapidly. The Guru is working hard to break them down mentally, emotionally, and physically.

Just read the waivers for the seminars, and they itemize what happens to people. At every large LGAT seminar people are getting hurt.
Waiver of Liability, Risk, Indemnity Agreement [forum.culteducation.com]

As mentioned before, many people do sue, and they fight them off until they quit, and if they won't quit they give a small payoff, and sign them to a gag-order. Tax write-off.

So it's definite Stephen Ray is not the brother? I've now seen conflicting reports.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2010 09:40AM by Christa.

Does anyone know who owns the rights to the book James Ray wrote that was scheduled to hit bookstores in December 2009, and was 'postponed' by the publisher?

At Ray's bail hearing, which I listened to, there was no mention of Ray having to reimbures the publisher for his book advance.

Assuming that the publisher, a division of Disney, owns rights to the book, I doubt they'd publish it.

If the rights somehow revert to James Ray, isn't it plausible that he could repackage the manuscript under a pen name & sell it, or just make a deal to pass it off as the work of another wealth guru and get some cash?

Per paragraph 5 of this article, Stephen Ray is unrelated to James Ray.

[www.azcentral.com]

Quote
The Anticult
What rating did on his bogus "consciousness scale" did David R. Hawkins give to James Ray? [www.spiritualteachers.org]
The technical term for this guy is whack-job Megalomaniac.

ANticult,

I was once a follower of Hawkins and still follow what he is up to. i got fooled by his ktesting, i now know it is fake, not scientifically proven. i have read most of his books and try to stay informed what he is still teaching.

as far as i know, he has never rated or calibrated james ray. but i will tell you, he is a pretty clever, shrewd fellow, and will not have anything to do with james ray nor recommend him. if he does rate him or calibrate him, it will be very, very low. he calibrated most of the teachers we know are fakes, charlatans on here, as low.

and its all about business. he wants his own followers. Sedona is a new age mecca so he has to have his own schtick, his own secret of attracting business to him there. i have heard though that Wayne dyer recommends hawkins to his listeners (another hay house author - power vs force published by hay house) and he has even been known to attend hawkins lectures. also michael beckwith has been known to attend hawkins lectures and they have had some dialogues. i saw some for sale on beckwiths site, him and hawkins talking. and in beckwiths latest book hawkins does endorse it and recommend it. so you are close, there are some connections between hawkins and dyer and beckwith and hay house, like that, but no connections as far as i know with james ray. and definitely not now. i am pretty sure if anybody asked him at his sedona lectures about the sweat lodge tragedy, he probably said stay away from this predator james ray and these are the dangers of teachers who calibrate, rate so low. of course you are safe with him he would say, thats good business.

Quote
The Anticult
The question is, is there anyone on the face of planet earth whom the fake NOT-Dr. Joe "Mr. Fire" Vitale DOESN'T endorse?

Vitale has accomplished one thing at least, he's written perhaps the WORST "book" in world history.

Ho'oponopono "Dr." Joe Vitale -one of the worst books in world history,
Zero Limits: The Secret Hawaiian System for Wealth, Health, Peace, and More
by Joe Vitale and Ihaleakala Hew Len [forum.culteducation.com]

Quote
Cosmic Connie
How can anyone question Dr. Hawkins' credibility when he has been endorsed by Joe "Mr. Fire" Vitale? [sarcasm font implied :-)]

[cosmicconnie.blogspot.com]

The sad thing is i believed, fell for Joe Vitales book "Honoponono" thinking it was a good, real teaching. the thing is i hang out at unity churches and new age circles and a lot of people there fall for all of these teachers, especially hay house authors. and when one author recommends another author or teaching everyone runs out and buys those books and says how wonderful they are and how these teachings can change your life. everyone from hawkins, dyer, hay, chopra, katie, tolle, beckwith, to even james ray and the secret. it is like a meme, a virus and it spreads quickly, that you need to read these books and that they are so transformative.

it is easy to look back now and say vitale is this or that, or james ray was a bad and dangerous man but unfortunately for the most of us, it is only in retrospect, after the fact. it is only the aware, wise ones like anticult and cosmic connie who spot these fakes, charlatans right away. and even at one time both of these two also got caught up in some of these teachers too.

i myself still have a hard time reconciling how someone like james ray can teach all of this stuff and know all these spiritual principles and spout out about the secret and law of attraction and even have lots of money and material things and still be so greedy, dangerous, selfish, arrogant, etc

but i will say again, there is no connection between james ray and hawkins. and hawkins would warn others about him and to stay away from him, especially if he doesnt go to jail, he would say stay away from his seminars, unless you want to be exposed to negativity and lower level consciousenss that might seep into your system.

Note to CosmicConnie...

...if you read this! Concerning some comments on Shamblog, about this thread.
(for the record, it appears the Sham situation in this forum was mainly a miscommunication. I thought SHAM was a good book, and we need more books like that, with even more specific detail on exactly HOW they get away with it).

But its amazing how distorted viewpoints can get, and this is just to try to clarify a few points.

Dave Lakhani, cult mind control tactics, covert manipulation [forum.culteducation.com]

First off, of course you were NOT taken to task for twittering with Dave Lakhani.
As said in the thread, there is no twitter police, its a free country as they say. But ole Dave Lakhani was deconstructed pretty intensely in the thread on him, and it wasn't very pretty, and got downright ugly very fast, with Lakhani trying some of his tactics.
Dave Lakhani advertises himself as a PROPAGANDIST. That part is true.
The seminar Lakhani was doing in Vegas with Kevin Hogan? You know what those guys are doing to people's heads/wallets over there, with Kevin Hogan and the gang? Not pretty either. A younger James Ray would love those seminars in Vegas, to learn some more weapons he could use.
Ever been to one of those hard-core "covert persuasion" seminars?
Some of those analyzing this material have been to the top seminars that Kevin Hogan and Dave Lakhani got their material from. The same material they try and sign people to bogus "trade secret" contracts about.

As far as this thread implying that you didn't know that Dave Lakhani is "diabolical" that has to be a joke, right? Does anyone recall anyone saying anything like that?
Dave Lakhani is not diabolical, he's pretty obvious to anyone with any training in the area. He's misleading, and misdirecting. (for your own good, of course, so he says).
Of course Dave Lakhani can be a smooth talker, no one is going to deny that, he does it for a living.
But he also is, to pardon the french, full of shit!
For example, he claims in his advertising he is an NLP Master Practitioner, but he is not. Not a certified one, as he won't prove it. Why not? He's just used to making that claim to people who have no concept of what he is talking about. Like when a new ager says he is a self-taught Quantum Physicist.
Dave Lakhani referred people to the C.A.N. which was taken over by Scientology years ago. That is very serious, for someone who supposedly is against Scientology? Referring people to a Scientology front-group?

So of course there is not Twitter police, of course anyone can do what they want.
But Dave Lakhani is a slippery smooth operator, and acts like a bully when he chooses, which is shown in many places. If people want to learn their lessons in the school of hard knocks, so be it.

But some folks looking into Dave Lakhani, actually went and accessed his books and materials and studied them quite carefully. [forum.culteducation.com]
The "free" comments in forums like these are much more helpful to the average person, than getting upsold by someone like Dave Lakhani.
His material on persuasion gets an F.
Its not good material, its all derivative, and at best 4th-5th hand. Meanwhile, he promises to reveal the REAL secrets if you join his inner circle, if you've got the cash, and only if he'll "accept you".
Oh please, that is sleazy stuff.
And yes, Dave Lakhani is a smooth talker, and a professional persuader and salesman, and a professional propagandist. So sure, he could bend the head of most people, who are not trained in that area. Especially when he does it in private where it can't be analyzed and challenged.

Yes, the language in these threads can be direct and blunt, but its important to be direct and blunt, to cut through the mountain of bullshit and misdirection in this area.


Conspiracies?
Where specifically in these threads, has there ever been a "conspiracy" around every corner? Why say such a thing?
On the contrary, conspiracy theories are universally debunked. Where in the James Ray case has there been a conspiracy theory?
Why say such a thing, about threads that contain important information that is not contained anywhere else?
There are more FACTS in some of these threads, than in EVERY book ever written by an LGAT Guru in their entire career. Example being Byron Katie, and many others.

There are people who post in these threads, who may not have training in the areas, but are trying to figure out what the hell happened to them, or their loved one. People are really getting hurt, they are getting scammed for thousands of dollars, and worse.

As far as the NLP hypno-persuasion, that is also a fact, as James Ray studied those techniques in Hawaii, and from Tony Robbins. Its a proven fact, even though James Ray tried to conceal that aspect of his training, as he didn't want to give that part away. Notice how those who are trained in these areas CONCEAL it, where others who are not, advertise they are certified NLP Master Practitioners, when they are not? (like Lakhani, for example).
Most people have no idea of where Tony Robbins learned his skills, or what those skills are, and James Ray is not the only one to have studied with those Gurus.
James Ray even uses actual basic techniques from Cialdini like Social Proof, another proven fact.
James Ray hasn't just made it a point to study persuasion techniques, that is his LIFE. That is all he's done for at least 2 decades.

Some posters here have been on the other side of the fence, and have seen these guys in action first hand.
Blunt direct and even harsh language is essential. The flowerly or overly neutral objective language found in mainstream journalism, is not going to cut it, and certainly won't help real people deal with what is going on. Of course it has its place, but its very superficial.
And even taking the strict Skeptic Carl Sagan approach is very helpful, but its not enough.
When dealing with advanced covert persuasion, there is never going to be complete information, and there is only so much time to analyze information, and so much of it is disinformation.
So a person has to make as accurate judgements as possible, with incomplete information, sometimes when they are up to their neck in it.
To break through the deep programming contained in many of these covert persuasion methods, it takes some blunt, forceful, and harsh language. That is deliberate, to cut through the bullshit.


CosmicConnie does a good job on her blogs, but if there are questions or concerns, why not post a question here openly, to get a clarification?
Of course each person has to make up their own minds about extremely complex processes and situations. Its complex and tough stuff.


Dave Lakhani for example, advertises himself as an NLP expert Master Practitioner. Is he? Or was that fabricated for marketing purposes to impress those who don't know any better?
Wonder why Lakhani lost his cool?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/20/2010 11:11AM by The Anticult.

Since Ray is claiming his companies are millions in debt, if in fact that is true, no one is going to get anything back from a bankrupt company.
But some of those book deals go years into the future with options?
The publisher is probably very happy to collect the money if any of his previous books still sell. Its the publishers who are to blame for the awful self-help books, they will try to sell basically anything if they can.

Quote
JimmyProfit
Does anyone know who owns the rights to the book James Ray wrote that was scheduled to hit bookstores in December 2009, and was 'postponed' by the publisher?

At Ray's bail hearing, which I listened to, there was no mention of Ray having to reimbures the publisher for his book advance.