Its truly unbelievable what these guys get away with.

Its like the Zen of Animal House.

If you read the code of ethics above, it directly contradicts what the Zen Guru is saying. Why?
It ain't Zen Koan double-speak!
Of course, they are probably trying to control some guys who want to imitate the Master, and this means "lets get drunk and screw". (maybe high on drugs too).
Last time I checked, that is not enlightenment, that is called college.

Now there also seems to be some of these faux enlightenment dudes who are into "Party Drugs".
Hey, its their brain, if they want to give themselves permanent brain damage.
But if they want to live the life of sex, drugs and rock and roll, why don't they join a band, or hang out at Burning Man Festival?
No, they gotta get up on their Blogs and act like they know something about enlightenment. What a joke. They are just lost in their own egomania and purple-haze.
One hopes not too many people are seduced by that nonsense.

As far as Seung Sahn, any rational person can see this is the tip of the iceberg. Just reverse the "code of ethics".
Power, big business, big money, sex, booze, drugs, verbal abuse, etc.

These types of Gurus are a disgrace to the idea of the Buddha. Anyone who has read any of the classical texts knows its obviously not about getting drunk everynight, screwing your students, verbally abusing people, and getting rich.

Look at this alleged lineage for Seung Sahn. I don't buy it.
[en.wikipedia.org]

They have the nerve to put the Buddha at the top of that list?
If it were a proper lineage and school, after that behavior he would have had his robes stripped from his back and be cast out into the streets with nothing.

They must try a fake argument of Crazy Wisdom...or the teacher is not the message.
BULLSHIT.
If his CHARACTER is ratshit and hypocritical, its over. Game over. That is what it is all about. Character. He should have been thrown out.
But no...someone writes in on Wikipedia, that the ladies liked it and it empowered them? Whoever wrote that is very creepy, and its most likely someone from the Kwan Um School of Zen - KUSZ.

Sounds like Siddha Yoga deja-vu all over again.


But this is not against "Zen".
I think a good way to go forward is seperating Zen Philosophy, from Zen Guru cult techniques and military-style organizations for money-making.

Zen Philosophy is fascinating.

Its the goddamn ridiculous Greedy Gurus that are the problem!!
If people want to party, have sex with everyone, be an alcoholic, do party drugs, get rich, etc, hey its a free country.
But please, stop pretending you are enlightened while being an arrogant hypocrite.
Just be honest, why not try that?


If you meet the Buddha on the road...??

WTF?

Below is a quote from Seung Sahn...I could swear I just read this somewhere, where someone was trying to make people "project" onto them that they were a Miracle Worker...
EDIT: It was Michael Gottlieb, the Leader of Royal Way, who basically plagiarized this quote, and just put it into his own words!! (of course, they are copying the statement from the New Testament along these lines...you doubting Thomas's! Just Believe, dammit!!)

Michael Gottlieb, is Royal Way a cult?
[forum.culteducation.com]
The letter is up on Wikileaks.org
[wikileaks.org]
[digg.com]


(by the way, this is a total bullshit argument of evasion, meant to make the naive disciple think the Guru has Miracle powers, which he DOES NOT. The guru just wants to avoid being forced to PROVE the false claims he is making. More blatant conscious deception, lies and fraud. If he were HONEST, he would say...dudes, I can't do any of that miracle stuff, I can't even stop drinking booze and overeating...)


"Zen Master Seung Sahn, who is the most famous Korean Zen Master in the West, in Dropping Ashes on the Buddha, one of his better selling books, related the following exchange of letters that indicates his view of the Zen Master. In a letter to the Master, someone asked, "If a Zen Master is capable of doing miracles, why doesn't he do them?... Why doesn't Soen Sunim do as Jesus did- make the blind see, or touch a crazy person and make him sane? Wouldn't even such a showy miracle as walking on water make people believe in Zen so that they would begin to practice..." The Master (that is, Seung Sahn) replied, "Many people want miracles, and if they witness miracles they become attached to them. But miracles are only a technique. They are not the true way. If a Zen Master used miracles often, people would become very attached to this technique of his, and they wouldn't learn the true way..."

by Stuart Lachs
"Some years later, Seung Sahn too was caught up in sexual scandals, having, over a period of years, simultaneous affairs with a number of his students directing his satellite Centers spread across the country. Seung Sahn's explanation was that the women needed his power to keep the Centers running. This affair was very divisive to his followers causing many people to leave."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/29/2008 03:12PM by The Anticult.

This stuff you've uncovered is incredible. Helps explain so much about one of our trolls. Thank you, AC!

The current leader of Kwan Um School of Zen (KUSZ) is "Soeng Hyang" aka Bobby.
Other name(s): Barbara Rhodes, Barbara Trexler

In a discussion area, its mentioned that she also had a sexual relationship with her guru.
This appears to have been removed from her wikipedia article. Below is a quote from the discussion.
As mentioned, why do they NOT mention any of this anywhere?
Is that being truthful? No, its being very deceptive.

If the Kwan Um School of Zen is a proper organization, why would they attempt to disappear something that serious? Not only the sexual offences of the Guru, but the fact it involved the current leader Soeng Hyang?

In a newsletter below she talks to some est-head trying to recruit her for the est training.

Then she goes on to to say that lying, killing and stealing are morally relative?
So its ok to lie if you think you are helping people?
Its ok to kill and steal if you think you are helping people?

They believe in extreme Moral Relativism, where the perceived ends justify the means.
According to the current leader Soeng Hyang, you can lie, kill, and steal, if you believe you are doing it to HELP people!
So she has internalized the dysfunctional belief system of her Guru, the very beliefs that seem to have led to her own sexual affair with her Guru, and the other problems?

Sure, Seung Sahn may have had to kill, steal, and lie in his life to survive in war...but you don't carry that into civilian life.
But that is exactly what he did.
He used his moral relativism to justify his own behavior.

But it does explain how yet another group thinks its ok to lie and steal, as long as you THINK you are helping people! That explains a lot, especially the apparent dishonesty recently from a member of this group.

They think its OK to be dishonest...as long as you believe its ok. Convenient.

Notice how these distorted values from the Guru have been internalized in the organization and possibly its followers?


___________________________________________
[en.wikipedia.org]
QUOTE:
"The article is OK, but it reads almost as if written by a follower--defintely seems to lack a NPOV. As documented many places, including Rick Fields's excellent book, How the Swans Came to the Lake (2nd Edition), Seung Sahn had sexual relationships with many women who were followers of his. One such was Soeng Hyang. This caused tension in his community, as well as resulting in many followers of his leaving. Despite this, he never relinquished his position, and websites produced by the Kwan Um school and other sources with links to him do not, to my knowledge, mention any of this."


____________________________________________
[www.kwanumzen.com]
April 14, 1982

Dear Jerry,

Thank you for your letter and the information about EST training. You helped me understand more about the training, especially by the way you talked about your own experience with it...

You said the EST training brochure mentioned instant transformation. I too believe that it is possible to transform our mind instantly and "get it." But what I also know is that it is very hard to keep it...

Sex, lying, killing, stealing, and heedlessness are all neither good nor bad by themselves. Why do you do them? That is what is most important. If it is to help people, then you are not breaking a Precept. ...

Sincerely,

Bobby

_______________________________________________



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2008 03:31PM by The Anticult.

PS:
The main astounding lesson learned in spades recently, is that many of these organizations train their followers that it is perfectly acceptable and proper to tell lies, for the sake of the organization.

Most people get socialized that lying is wrong, not only for moral reasons, and yourconscience, but also that eventually people will find out you lied to them, and then trust is shattered and you have hurt yourself permanently.

So they have to retrain their followers in a "reframe" that lying to protect the Guru and the organization is perfectly acceptable, and expected.They use these moral gymnastics to release the person from feeling guilt about lying.

This is whythey can lie to RECRUIT you, as its "for your own good" and they are "saving you".

You can really see the extent these groups go to train their own people its ok to lie.

It appears KUSZ says its ok if you tell yourself you are "helping people".
Byron Katie says you can lie, because there is no truth anyway, so might as well lie.
Siddha Yoga trains their people to lie to protect the organization, not sure their rationalization yet.

So according to these folks, LYING IS GOOD, as long as you have a rationalization for it.

Just to put a counterpoint into this.
In no way is it being said that these are bad people or something along those lines.

For example, Soeng Hyang, as mentioned in a few places, is apparently one of the only female Zen leaders out there who is openly gay with a family. So that's a good sign, that level of openess.

But, it does seem this line of "Zen" appears to be a type of Warrior Zen, and seems to be influenced with ideas along the lines of The Art Of War.
Anyone engaged in a philosophy has to open themselves up for criticism, or they are a closed system.

And organizational problems are something else altogether.
And deception of new followers or the public, is crossing the line.

So there are many questions up in the air and left unanswered at this time.

The sound of the other single-hand clapping is still to come.

There is a tiny bit of information here and there about the sexual abuses of Seung Sahn, clearly they have tried to cover it up, as in 2006, people in the Buddhist community still knew nothing about it.
Also, that info was removed from Wikipedia before the book reference below made it stick.

Note that the Empty Gate Zen Center is referenced in the book below.


[www.lioncity.net]
------------------
What does (Seung Sahn) say about "zen masters" having sex with students and claiming its for their spiritual benefit? Please no fortune cookie quotes.
-------------------
May 2 2006, 08:24 AM
I don't know that that specific question is addressed, [...] and I don't recall him mentioning it in what I have read of his writings. He was a Zen Buddhist, and anyone who accepts the precepts in the Kwan Um School is vowing not to commit sexual misconduct, which I think would apply.

To be honest, it's hard for me to imagine a scenario in which a teacher really could use sex with a student as an expedient means to liberate that student. But (in such a hypothetical situation) a teacher motivated by compassion would have sex with his or her student. I think we can all agree that it's a bad idea for a Zen teacher to have sex with a student as an expedient means to getting his rocks off.

I have a question for you: are you asking the question because Seung Sahn or one of his dharma heirs had sex with a student? I don't know of any such incident occurring, and I'm at a loss as to why this question is relevant in a thread about Seung Sahn Soen-sa's teachings.
---------------------------------
There were some revelations a few years back, the specifics of which I don't find readily available, though you can go here, and look up the entry for Sandy Boucher to get some idea of the extent of the situation, not just with Seung Sahn, but others as well.
--------------------------------
From doing a quick Google search, it looks like the only way that I'll find out more about what you're describing is to read that book by Sandy Boucher, since I can't find anything which goes into more detail than that page you provided a link to.
------------------------------
Buddhist Clergy Sexual Abuse:
Annotated Bibliography
[www.iivs.de]

Boucher, Sandy. (1988; 1993). Turning the Wheel: American Women Creating the New Buddhism, updated and expanded edition. Boston, MA: Beacon Press, 387 pp.
Boucher is a feminist and writer, Oakland, California, who, in her 40s, was introduced to Buddhist meditation. Wrote the book to explore the “phenomenon of women’s participation in Buddhism in the United States today...” and to create a “segment of history and a tool for change.” [...]

Sonia Alexander who left the Cambridge, Massachusetts, Zen Center after the news that the head, Master Seung Sahn, called Soen Sa Nim by students, had had long-term sexual relationships with women in the Center; Loie Rosenkrantz, formerly director of the Empty Gate Zen Center in Berkeley, California, that was also founded by Soen Sa Nim, and her analysis of the spiritual atmosphere after learning of his sexual activities; Carla Brennan and her thoughtful analysis of these issues [see below, Brennan, Carla, (1986).]

down at the bottom of this blog page, Stuart Resnick RandomStu rationalizes the sexual abuses of his guru Seung Sahn.
THE GURU WAS HAVING SEX WITH HIS FEMALE STUDENTS WHICH WAS AGAINST THE RULES AND HE WAS LYING ABOUT IT FOR YEARS.
But that's ok with Stuart Resnick! Unbelievable. This guy is way over the line into professional internet apologetics. Talk about screaming red flags...or worse.

No its not ok.
If a therapist or person in authority is having sex with his patients, he can go to jail.
If a CEO was having sex with a bunch of his managers, he will be fired out on his sorry ass.

If an alleged Zen Master is having sex with a bunch of his female STUDENTS, he is not a Zen Master, he is a fraud and a disgrace, especially when he tells more lies, and tries to rationalize it. Those are the words of a sexual abuser..."she liked it...she's wasn't under 18 as far as I know".

Stuart Resnick is also making ANOTHER patently false statement below, as even a casual internet surfer can find links to Seung Sahn hinting he has miracle powers as a Uber-Zen Master (which is total bullshit).
...there is a lot more there, hopefully others can have a look as well. Almost unbelievable...but believe it.

In one of the comments, someone calls Stuart REsnick "naive" in his views. He's not naive at all, he is deliberately trying to do some "perceptual shaping" (propaganda) for Seung Sahn, its very obvious.
They did it on Wikipedia, trying to delete the entry, and then later trying to shape people's perceptions about it after the fact. A familiar pattern.



[ritualsofdisenchantment.blogspot.com]
QUOTE:
"As a student of Seung Sahn, I'll add a couple of points. Firstly, he never claimed to be a superior person, or someone we should obey or believe or follow. He rather claimed to be someone who was pointing at something that we could all see for ourselves.

Therefore, his personal life isn't so relevent, since he never claimed to be a superior person. We can look at the teaching, what he was pointing to. The teacher is just an ordinary person who offers the teaching. This is very different from the status of a guru in SYDA.

That being said... I know of no evidence that his sexual encounters were anything but consentual. He didn't go after underaged women. He never claimed to be superior or God-like, so there was no coersion in that sense either.

Stuart"

_________________________________________

Anonymous said...
Dear Stuart,
Thanks for your thoughts on transmission in the zen tradition (although I have heard other ways of describing it). Mostly I am questioning your dismissive attitude towards energy and the implication that, within zen, it is not considered. So I'm posting an excerpt from a conversation with a friend who was deeply involved with the Providence Zen Center and who practiced under Seung Sahn:

" [...]The sex in Zen centers,I am sorry to say, sounded a bit like the book but no one said that they had a tremendous experience (she is refering to Mary Garden's book, "Serpent Rising:). But the actual act of sex sounded alike. I never screwed the zen master but enough of the women who did told me about it. Mind to mind transmission really lacked energy. But boy there were some "spooky" things in Korean Zen most of which was NOT being taught to Americans. I don't think Japanese Zen had as much "spooky stuff" in it.
What Americans were taught was different from the "spooky stuff". Oh some of the women thought they were special by sleeping with the zen master and apparently sex is very prevalent in centers, it is just in prudish America it isn't. I kind of disagreed.this is part of why siddha yoga didn't surprise me much. When I was there (in Providence) Seung Sang was there. He was the original zen master. Now it is a woman; she slept with him but turned out gay anyway."
...
January 21, 2008 1:21 PM

_________________________________________________

In regards to RandomStu, there is also a deeper pattern at work which points to some of what is being said, which is certainly non-random. The more basic agenda at play is something to keep in mind in general when reading on the internet. It appears RandomStu has been around for years but this type of "Zen in the Art of War", where anything goes, has not been looked at.

So this appears to be an example of those who present themselves as a type of critic of Gurus, but in reality they only criticize the worst criminals or their own Guru's enemies, meanwhile running apologetics and even cover-ups for their own Gurus of choice, and their methods of influence and coercion.
This is why a person would constantly post links to their Blog, even when told not to. The blog and websites are a type of soft-persuasion, to gently, or harshly shape the perceptions of the readers. It ain't "Random". That is like the concept..."Anti-Guru".


If you look at RandomStu's comments above about sexual coercion from Seung Sahn in the previous posts, his criteria for it not being coercion is that it was not with underage girls, or was apparently not forced sex due to no criminal charges? So it seems the only thing to meet the critieria for coercion then would be statutory rape, or rape. Rape is not "coercion" in this sense, rape is a criminal offense.

No, what Seung Sahn did is the definition of coercive by using undue influence and abusing his power and position. He had a supreme position of power over these women, he controlled their careers, their incomes, and in their belief system he basically influenced their entire destiny. Leaving a sect which you have given your life is very difficult for people.
On top of this, he probably told most of these women various lies about his intentions about marriage with them, etc.

That is all very serious coercion done by Seung Sah, and an abuse of power.
So how can someone like Stuart Resnick talk about "coercion" in any context, when anything short of the criminal offense of rape is not coercive? He is just trying to redefine the meaning of the word coercion, which is the same tactic being used all over the place.


Lastly, even the Wikipedia article on the Kwan Um School of Zen details very extreme practices, which are the textbook definition of some of the methods of social influence being discussed.
They use ancient extreme techniques like doing 1000 prostrations a day...which would take 8 hours at 30 secs for each one.
Or more familiar Tech like they use in some of their Retreats, which is a method of old school defacto brainwashing.
---------------------
[en.wikipedia.org]
"As Mu Soeng indicates, one of the key tenets to practice is what Seung Sahn often called "together action." Many members actually live in the Zen cente..."
"Participants have no contact with the outside world while undergoing a (21 to 90 day intensive) retreat, and the only literature permitted are those works written by Seung Sahn. They are in practice from 4:45 a.m. to 9:45 p.m. each day, and are not permitted to keep a diary during their stay."

These techniques of the Kwan Um School of Zen and their very extreme practices, like isolation for up to 90 days 17 hours a day while only reading the works of Seung Sahn, while NOT BEING PERMITTED to keep a diary. [en.wikipedia.org]

It triggered memories of how in various LGAT trainings they often discussed in great detail the numerous Korean brainwashing experiments which started back in the 1950's in a crude form.
They progressed from severe violence to permissive techniques which became much more subtle and effective.
Some of the most effective techniques were when they showed the subjects that all of their previous decisions they made were their own "free choice" and that there was no overt coercion they could spot.

Of course this is a massive subject.
But it is interesting to speculate how this knowledge filtered down into the Korean military of all sides.
Also, many manuals and books of these techniques have been available for decades, and of course they are much more refined.

Just search Google for

Korean brainwashing