Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 01, 2008 03:34AM
In the following linked chart Margaret Singer makes distinctions between different types of persuasion.
What cults do is "thought reform" as opposed to education, advertising, propaganda or indoctrination.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Note the gradations between the different categories of persuasion.
What process and context led to an experience?
Was the group responsible for that experience through its process of persuasion?
Certain subjective "spiritual" experiences might be manipulated, which can become a hook used by the group for control.
For example, trance induction or self hypnosis, achieved through some sort of group process/regimen, resulting in an altered state of consciousness.
In such an altered state people become highly suggestible and therefore easier to manipulate.
This has been specifically observed in many neo-eastern groups that have certain meditation and chanting exercises, e.g. Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON).
What cults do is "thought reform" as opposed to education, advertising, propaganda or indoctrination.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Note the gradations between the different categories of persuasion.
What process and context led to an experience?
Was the group responsible for that experience through its process of persuasion?
Certain subjective "spiritual" experiences might be manipulated, which can become a hook used by the group for control.
For example, trance induction or self hypnosis, achieved through some sort of group process/regimen, resulting in an altered state of consciousness.
In such an altered state people become highly suggestible and therefore easier to manipulate.
This has been specifically observed in many neo-eastern groups that have certain meditation and chanting exercises, e.g. Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON).
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: July 01, 2008 05:38AM
Apologies to Arjuna das for the mistaken identity!
Inside the head of a new cult member
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: July 01, 2008 06:46AM
Thanks Rick for these articles.
I am still carefully reading them.
I am particularly impressed with Allen Tate Wood's quotes:
The new rituals, songs, clothes, and wildly fun kirtans (group chants) did create a seductive atmosphere. It didn't "feel" like a controlled environment at the time. It felt completely free when it wasn't at all. Everyone was there for some kind of spiritual experience. The myth of the divinity of Chris became well metabolized there. This is illustrated in the memos posted. Ordinary people look at them and see instantly how "off" they are, but they were freely accepted.
There was tremendous pressure to get the approval from CB and therefore the group. You did not want to be the next brunt of one of CB's jokes pointing out all of your flaws in public. CB once called a young woman a "dog in heat" because she wanted to marry a man who was not in the group. She married him anyway and CB continued to reject her but didn't mind a lot of free labor. This man succumbed to the cult too.
Followers with doubts say they felt like they could not express them to any one or become a target for insults and shunning. They were told that "doubts are demons!" One person told me that they didn't get the "lord in the Heart" thing and complained about not "feeling" anything at kirtans. No one would have dared to express these feelings publicly! Other people would go on an on about stories and spiritual experiences with their guru, how "amazing" he was. A smug toss of the head and the feeling from them that YOU could NEVER understand just made you want to follow more diligently so you COULD really feel like you were one of them! Everyone had at least one event that proved to them that Chris was a pure devotee. Some only based their belief on what other people "for sure could trust" had said. Others based it on dreams or on a comment or charismatic smile from Chris.
The lack of normal openness and compassion in relationships was sorely felt and described here often by many ex followers of CB.
Brilliant. This is the best quote of the article! "...the colonization of the imagination understood as a supernatural experience." It has a meme-ness quality; in the end, was only a "mind virus", not a true spiritual experience.
I am still carefully reading them.
I am particularly impressed with Allen Tate Wood's quotes:
Quote
rrmoderator
Here is an interesting article that just appeared about cult brainwashing, which was written by a former "Moonie" member of Rev. Moon's Unification Church. it helps to explain how cult members are manipulated and hooked by cults.See
[www.newstatesman.com] Inside the head of a new cult member - New Statesman/June 30, 2008
By Allen Tate Wood
... Psycho-technology, simply put, is the combination of a cult's teachings, doctrine and recruiting/training procedures.
The goal of cult psycho-technology is the production of a series of peak experiences designed to make an impression on new recruits. For many cult members, these behaviorally and environmentally induced "spiritual experiences" lead from a healthy, open and questioning attitude to a complete regression into dependence and reliance on the cult group.
These experiences, occurring often as they do within the highly charged, tightly controlled atmosphere of the cult, are not subjected to the kind critical scrutiny that they ordinarily would be. Instead they are metabolized and socialized within the language and doctrine of the cult.
The new rituals, songs, clothes, and wildly fun kirtans (group chants) did create a seductive atmosphere. It didn't "feel" like a controlled environment at the time. It felt completely free when it wasn't at all. Everyone was there for some kind of spiritual experience. The myth of the divinity of Chris became well metabolized there. This is illustrated in the memos posted. Ordinary people look at them and see instantly how "off" they are, but they were freely accepted.
Quote
rrmoderator
They are the occasion for increased approval from the group. Phenomenologically speaking, they initiate the "divine history" of the individual, and they reinforce the history and mythology of the group. What is perceived as a flash of illumination and liberation becomes, in fact, the first step in a march toward moral slavery and psychological bondage.
There was tremendous pressure to get the approval from CB and therefore the group. You did not want to be the next brunt of one of CB's jokes pointing out all of your flaws in public. CB once called a young woman a "dog in heat" because she wanted to marry a man who was not in the group. She married him anyway and CB continued to reject her but didn't mind a lot of free labor. This man succumbed to the cult too.
Followers with doubts say they felt like they could not express them to any one or become a target for insults and shunning. They were told that "doubts are demons!" One person told me that they didn't get the "lord in the Heart" thing and complained about not "feeling" anything at kirtans. No one would have dared to express these feelings publicly! Other people would go on an on about stories and spiritual experiences with their guru, how "amazing" he was. A smug toss of the head and the feeling from them that YOU could NEVER understand just made you want to follow more diligently so you COULD really feel like you were one of them! Everyone had at least one event that proved to them that Chris was a pure devotee. Some only based their belief on what other people "for sure could trust" had said. Others based it on dreams or on a comment or charismatic smile from Chris.
Quote
rrmoderator
The successfully socialized cult member has entered a world in which submission to authority, blind obedience and conformity have supplanted such "outmoded" notions of character formation as the development of self-reliance, the capacity for critical thinking and the need for openness and compassion in human relationships.
The lack of normal openness and compassion in relationships was sorely felt and described here often by many ex followers of CB.
Quote
rrmoderator
Successful indoctrination into a destructive cult results in the repudiation of the individual conscience, rejection of one’s critical faculties and the colonization of the imagination understood as a supernatural experience.
Brilliant. This is the best quote of the article! "...the colonization of the imagination understood as a supernatural experience." It has a meme-ness quality; in the end, was only a "mind virus", not a true spiritual experience.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
dharmabum
()
Date: July 01, 2008 09:10AM
Thanks Vera for all your posts, it hurts to look back at what really attracted me about that cult. I can't believe how stupid of me as a young man to have stooped down that low to think that I had gained entrance into something exotic and sublime. CB deliberately misled young people like me into that illusion that no matter how farther down he lowered the bar, we would still reach down just to feel pleasing to him.
It's like saying, "I can kick my dog as much as I want and it won't bite."
I like what Joseph Campbell described as the way of the Grail Knights of the Western European tradition as a very individual journey, as opposed to the guru tradition of the East, it goes:
They thought that it would be a disgrace to go forth as a group.
Each entered the forest at a point that he himself had chosen,
where it was darkest and there was no path. If there is a path
it is someone else's path and you are not on the adventure.
He also adds:
The thing about the guru in the West is that he represents an alien principle of the spirit, namely, that you don't follow your own path; you follow a given path. And that's totally contrary to the Western spirit! Our spirituality is of the individual quest, individual realization--authenticity in your life out of your own center. So you must take the message form the East, assimilate it to your own dimension and to your own thrust of life, and not get pulled off track. (p. 90)
Mind you, even though the Buddha is from the East he too taught that self-realization is an individual effort, very consistent with the Grail Knights tradition. No wonder the Hindus thought of the Buddha as a heretic. It is true that there are gurus in Buddhism too but you are supposed to guide the guru to where you want him to guide you, just as Merlin was to King Arthur; which is totally different from what CB espoused - guru as the true and only representative of God on Earth. CB too condemns Buddhism as a materialist or impersonalist (mayavadi) philosophy because it denies the existence of God in its practice of self-realization.
Joseph Campbell, like Carl Jung (both were good friends), was an author and teacher best known for his work in the field of comparative mythology. Campbell was educated at Columbia University, where he specialized in medieval literature. His first original work, The Hero with a Thousand Faces, was published in 1949 and was immediately well received; in time, it became acclaimed as a classic. In this study of the "myth of the hero," Campbell asserted that there is a single pattern of heroic journey and that all cultures share this essential pattern in their various heroic myths.
This to me is more mature and more scholastic than the eastern philosophies peddled in the West. Like in CB's most of which were applied out of context. But it's not so much about East vs. West, but putting into context the different traditions we as humans developed from different environment.
It's like saying, "I can kick my dog as much as I want and it won't bite."
I like what Joseph Campbell described as the way of the Grail Knights of the Western European tradition as a very individual journey, as opposed to the guru tradition of the East, it goes:
They thought that it would be a disgrace to go forth as a group.
Each entered the forest at a point that he himself had chosen,
where it was darkest and there was no path. If there is a path
it is someone else's path and you are not on the adventure.
He also adds:
The thing about the guru in the West is that he represents an alien principle of the spirit, namely, that you don't follow your own path; you follow a given path. And that's totally contrary to the Western spirit! Our spirituality is of the individual quest, individual realization--authenticity in your life out of your own center. So you must take the message form the East, assimilate it to your own dimension and to your own thrust of life, and not get pulled off track. (p. 90)
Mind you, even though the Buddha is from the East he too taught that self-realization is an individual effort, very consistent with the Grail Knights tradition. No wonder the Hindus thought of the Buddha as a heretic. It is true that there are gurus in Buddhism too but you are supposed to guide the guru to where you want him to guide you, just as Merlin was to King Arthur; which is totally different from what CB espoused - guru as the true and only representative of God on Earth. CB too condemns Buddhism as a materialist or impersonalist (mayavadi) philosophy because it denies the existence of God in its practice of self-realization.
Joseph Campbell, like Carl Jung (both were good friends), was an author and teacher best known for his work in the field of comparative mythology. Campbell was educated at Columbia University, where he specialized in medieval literature. His first original work, The Hero with a Thousand Faces, was published in 1949 and was immediately well received; in time, it became acclaimed as a classic. In this study of the "myth of the hero," Campbell asserted that there is a single pattern of heroic journey and that all cultures share this essential pattern in their various heroic myths.
This to me is more mature and more scholastic than the eastern philosophies peddled in the West. Like in CB's most of which were applied out of context. But it's not so much about East vs. West, but putting into context the different traditions we as humans developed from different environment.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
SoI Kills
()
Date: July 01, 2008 02:54PM
[...] Chris Butler has also used progressive hypnosis under various psuedonyms for many decades. More recently it has been defined as 'relaxation'. The added hours of individual/group chanting were part of the brainwashing and not just for atmospheric social purposes.
Not to mention that [...] he targeted LSD-influenced youths who were already in an altered state of consciousness, ripe for manipulation.
[...] It is the programming that controls doubt and I suspect this is the case with all other members. For, example, when watching the recruitment JG speaks videos there were moments when I could see the hypocrisy of his public face but my mindset wouldn't allow further examination of these ideas based on Butler's pure devotee status. This is where the concept of 'snapping' arises when a person is pushed, or perhaps even forced, to examine doubts instead of blocking them out. I've been privy to recent conversations with SoI members who are presented with facts about the organization that can't be explained and the response is extreme rage and communication is completely shut down at that point.
[...]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2008 06:11PM by rrmoderator.
Not to mention that [...] he targeted LSD-influenced youths who were already in an altered state of consciousness, ripe for manipulation.
[...] It is the programming that controls doubt and I suspect this is the case with all other members. For, example, when watching the recruitment JG speaks videos there were moments when I could see the hypocrisy of his public face but my mindset wouldn't allow further examination of these ideas based on Butler's pure devotee status. This is where the concept of 'snapping' arises when a person is pushed, or perhaps even forced, to examine doubts instead of blocking them out. I've been privy to recent conversations with SoI members who are presented with facts about the organization that can't be explained and the response is extreme rage and communication is completely shut down at that point.
[...]
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2008 06:11PM by rrmoderator.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
SoI Kills
()
Date: July 01, 2008 10:24PM
So anyway, Zeuszor, are you going to tell us who the mystery man is?
[www.sdgonline.org]
There is quite a resemblance to Satsvarupa a third of a century on, but I can see they are not the same person now.
There is a book on the site called "Jesus Loves Krishna". The cover was recovered from the net with the same cover design as yours but an alternate title. Since you are having net troubles perhaps you could check out the book to see if it's identical and maybe save you the trouble.
[cultofbutler.com]
[www.sdgonline.org]
There is quite a resemblance to Satsvarupa a third of a century on, but I can see they are not the same person now.
There is a book on the site called "Jesus Loves Krishna". The cover was recovered from the net with the same cover design as yours but an alternate title. Since you are having net troubles perhaps you could check out the book to see if it's identical and maybe save you the trouble.
[cultofbutler.com]
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: July 01, 2008 11:48PM
Dharmabum,Quote
dharmabum
This to me is more mature and more scholastic than the eastern philosophies peddled in the West. Like in CB's most of which were applied out of context. But it's not so much about East vs. West, but putting into context the different traditions we as humans developed from different environment.
Here are some good comments from corboy again Rick Ross Scroll down to the BIGr secret post.
He’s talking about Large Group Awareness Trainings (LGAT’s), but it still applies here.
You pointed out the differences between the eastern and the western mind sets. Perhaps without using LGAT type operating systems, none of these eastern religions would have gained popularity in the west. It makes me wonder…?
Quote
corboy
So, speaking for myself, as Corboy, I will say that any teaching, no matter how accurately it is quoted and no matter how ancient and honorable its source will become corrupt as soon as it is combined and delivered using an LGAT operating system and hardware.
Chris Butler adopted the ready made ISKCON operating system that had at its core typical LGAT manipulation methods such as diet changes, chanting, sleep deprivation, and the same hierarchical structure. No doubt he had his own approach; different hairstyle, same head.
Often cult members will not blame the guru, but the other followers for the failings of an organization. They fail to consider the flaws of the guru because that contradicts the programming.Quote
corboy
It may be that many persons sincerely trying to recover have great difficulty because they think the belief system is the only ingredient that messed them up--and they may discount other elements that had as great or more profound an effect.
People trying to recover may also throw out the honorable sources and good teachings along with the corrupted parts, not being able to distinguish between healthy and unhealthy. Not understanding how very, very vulnerable we humans are, how easily manipulated towards states of ecstasy and false spiritual experiences, leaves us too open.
Corboy’s post is worth reading because he goes into depth about the different techniques used by cults. He also gives a person the right questions to ask. Often you will see former cult members jumping from one cult belief system to another. The reason why is because of the failure to see that the belief system is not “the only ingredient that messed them up”.
Jagad Guru was well aware of cults and deprogrammers as far back as the 1970’s. He discussed them frequently in the wake of Jonestown and had several books on the subject. No doubt he was learning and adapting.
I have no doubt that this is precisely what happened with Chris Butler’s group. Apparently he has learned from other cults very well…Quote
corboy
If a seemingly 'Hindu' guru covertly learned LGAT methods from an American buddy who was an LGAT entrepreneur and slipped American style LGAT tech into and under the cover of gorgeous, glittering brocade adorned chanting and guru theatre, his or her followers may not realize that in addition to the dysfunctions of that guru's interpretation of Hinduism and the guru student role--they may have lingering poisoning from the LGAT
tech that their guru used---and never told them about.
Quote
corboy
But what if you think you got poisoned by bad Hinduism and don’t know that part of the poison was derived from an American source--yank style LGAT
tech?
…How can people want from a group or guru, what they were not told that guru was giving?
…We are damned vulnerable in human relations, even the brightest of us.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2008 11:59PM by Vera City.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
SoI Kills
()
Date: July 02, 2008 01:14AM
We have recovered Mike Gabbard's Stop Promoting Homosexuality International site from the internet archive. Fortunately the full site was still available after several years.
[www.cultofbutler.com]
Another person pretending not to be a member of SoI.
It's interesting that in the last decade there has actually only been a handful of individuals who openly admit to being a member. All these international businesses and websites are run by who?
There are five more faces to SoI:
- The regular joe who has no religious affiliations.
- Those who are just into eastern practices for a healthy lifestyle.
- The Catholic convert.
- The ex-members who support SoI on vaishnava forums across the internet while being regulars at "Big Birds" farm.
- err.. well you know.
Upon opposition Science of Identity simply folded. RKd, after making a complete fool out of himself, now denies having had anything to do with this forum.
The guy who just labelled Cult of Butler as "ISKCON criminals" was trying at least. Anonymous guerilla attacks and spam is the best we are likely to see, oh, and those pretending to be from other vaishnava groups. The cult creates sleazy individuals without the courage to stand up for what they believe in. Pathetic.
[www.cultofbutler.com]
Another person pretending not to be a member of SoI.
It's interesting that in the last decade there has actually only been a handful of individuals who openly admit to being a member. All these international businesses and websites are run by who?
There are five more faces to SoI:
- The regular joe who has no religious affiliations.
- Those who are just into eastern practices for a healthy lifestyle.
- The Catholic convert.
- The ex-members who support SoI on vaishnava forums across the internet while being regulars at "Big Birds" farm.
- err.. well you know.
Upon opposition Science of Identity simply folded. RKd, after making a complete fool out of himself, now denies having had anything to do with this forum.
The guy who just labelled Cult of Butler as "ISKCON criminals" was trying at least. Anonymous guerilla attacks and spam is the best we are likely to see, oh, and those pretending to be from other vaishnava groups. The cult creates sleazy individuals without the courage to stand up for what they believe in. Pathetic.
Re: Chris Butler, Jagad Guru, Science of Identity
Posted by:
SoI Kills
()
Date: July 02, 2008 05:31AM
Vera: "Jagad Guru was well aware of cults and deprogrammers as far back as the 1970’s. He discussed them frequently in the wake of Jonestown and had several books on the subject. No doubt he was learning and adapting."
Very interesting that you bring up this point.
Zelig: "CB also mentions on one of his tapes BF Skinner -- look him up. I am sure CB was studying mind control techniques in the mid 70's as many of his talks (not recorded) were about 'de-programing' people away from cults. He hated one guy called "Black Lightning" (if I recall the name correctly). RR is probably more familiar with the history of deprogramming.
CB schooled himself in these techniques and probably consciously started to employ them in the early 80's, after the great exodus of a lot of talented people. It seems that all these 'meditation' techniques he learned at a young age are also being used again in conjuction with sophisticated mind control techniques." [...]
[...] Zelig [...] seemed to be of the opinion that Chris wasn't using these techniques at any stage during his 14 year stretch in the cult. He was also a propagator of a "great exodus" myth.
What is your position?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2008 05:36AM by rrmoderator.
Very interesting that you bring up this point.
Zelig: "CB also mentions on one of his tapes BF Skinner -- look him up. I am sure CB was studying mind control techniques in the mid 70's as many of his talks (not recorded) were about 'de-programing' people away from cults. He hated one guy called "Black Lightning" (if I recall the name correctly). RR is probably more familiar with the history of deprogramming.
CB schooled himself in these techniques and probably consciously started to employ them in the early 80's, after the great exodus of a lot of talented people. It seems that all these 'meditation' techniques he learned at a young age are also being used again in conjuction with sophisticated mind control techniques." [...]
[...] Zelig [...] seemed to be of the opinion that Chris wasn't using these techniques at any stage during his 14 year stretch in the cult. He was also a propagator of a "great exodus" myth.
What is your position?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/02/2008 05:36AM by rrmoderator.
More Jagad Guru Chris Butler screaming memes
Posted by:
Vera City
()
Date: July 02, 2008 09:54PM
More on the formation of the Science of Identity Foundation
and continued ranting and use of brain reformatting code words and screaming memes...
“Not serious enough”…
and continued ranting and use of brain reformatting code words and screaming memes...
“Not serious enough”…
Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.