Dear Garden and all:

We have had some disruptive visitors to this thread. And, any time someone provides now information, the likelihood of a new set of disruptive visitors increases.

Garden, you identified yourself as a former BK participant. You may risk being targeted by persons who know what kinds of triggers were installed during the training. So please be careful.

A very good strategy is dont respond to PMs from brand new people who have not yet established solid reputations on RR.com.

Two, if someone shows up new on this thread, sit back and wait. Or if you have doubts and the person already has posted, read all that persons posts, in aggregate and you can learn a lot--such as a person being nicey nice on one thread and nasty on another thread.

If you get any PM that is strange or doesnt seem right, pass it on to Rick Ross.

Persons who are honest enough to reveal that they were once involved with a group and who are in recovery may risk being targeted by those who want to confuse them and make them doubt their own perceptions.

On a very old LGAT thread years back, (it had nothing to do with BK--totally different set up) a very ingenious troll pretended to be an exit counselor and would target people who said they were recovering from the effects of the LGAT in question.

This troll's posts were full of stuff that confused and bored the crap out of me, but another person warned that that material was full of triggers could could fog the minds of LGAT graduates trying to recover and who were unaware of what levers had been implanted.

So, here is another spiffy, RR.com Continuing Education Module--this time on the subject of the hairy toed tribe--


Trolls and Disinformation Specialists

(This first item is to assist us if someone arrives and tries to run a guilt trip on us for suppressing the First Amendment by refusing to allow trolling, you can blow 'em off:)

David Wong, gives us some perspective in his article

Five Ways to Stop Trolls from Killing the Internet

(The entire thing is not only informative, but also piss-in-your pants-funny. The photos are a hoot. Be sure to check out the photo of Mr Wong in a thong)

[www.cracked.com]

Quote:
"Right now if you have a blog or forum or anything else with open comments, and you don't have a human moderator to watch it, you're going to wind up with a wasteland.
"As soon as more than one troll shows up, they will feed off each other until everyone else is gone. You have to control them.

"And don't start talking about free speech; the troll's goal is to shut down speech, to either fill the channel with noise until no one can talk to each other, or to get everyone talking about him instead of the subject at hand. He's a guy in a coffee shop screaming nonsense over a bullhorn."


In this case, 'the subject at hand' is BK.

Beware the Troll

**This is epecially important for those of us on RR.com using the Private Message (PM) system. Someone may try to game you through the PM system.

Dont fall for it

Here are just one or two items
from the list:

[www.teamtechnology.co.uk]

Tactical Trolls
Quote:

They engage in off list email dialogues to gain the confidence and trust of influential individuals on the list.

They are friendly and humorous in the posts, to put you at ease with their persona.

They have a well-thought-through story such that the persona seems to be very real. They will give apparently personal and intimate information, particularly in off list emails.

They win trust by giving trust. For example, they may hint at something confidential on-list, but then only reveal the full story to someone off-list. By bringing someone into their confidence, they create a feeling of confidence towards them by the individual's concerned

In off-list emails, (eg which correspond to RR.coms PM)they use techniques borrowed from NLP and Speed-Seduction to make people have a great deal of affection for them. This naturally suppresses any suspicion there might be.

They use gimmicks that win sympathy and bring out the 'nurturing parent' in other list members, which also suppresses any feelings of suspicion. E.g.: being blind, handicapped, an orphan, rejected, bullied etc..

(The BK gang specialize in manipulative pathos -just read this thread and study some of the handles of folks who turned out to be trolls C)

They use language that is carefully constructed to be subtly invidious. *
This language is designed to identify two or more separate groups of people, and encourage list members to identify the negative traits of those groups. This creates argument and dissent between list members. Note that subtlety is often their main objective, so this language is difficult to spot.

(Corboy *I call these posts 'sting in a tail'--it sounds sweet but all of a sudden, you feel a jab. Or you get a subtle feeling there's a stink and you wonder where its coming from..like having a stray bit of dogshit on your shoe. You dont know it's there until the room warms up and people start giving you strange looksand you go nuts trying to figure out what the problem is.)

They don't enter into the argument directly, but facilitate an argument between list members, e.g.: by highlighting points that one list member has made, perhaps in a way that is more confrontational than the original intention.

*(Aka 'shit disturbers' Corboy)

They sometimes create a fictitious persona supported by a web-site, photographs and apparently personal data.

For more, read here:

[www.teamtechnology.co.uk]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/11/2009 01:33AM by corboy.

Corboy,

Thank you, I will be aware, very aware!

English is not my first language, so please forgive me for my english! Reading english is easy for me, however, writing it is quite a challenge.

In the country I live it is now bedtime. I will return tomorrow.

Anticult:

Thank you for being the voice of reason, in an otherwise emotion-charged forum subject such as the Amazon book review removals. Your posting of the rules for reviewing on Amazon, should help one come up with a review that is defendable, should it become necessary to defend against the organized complaining that perhaps causes the negative reviews to be removed. Your perspective is appreciated.

corboy:

Thanks for linking to some very humorous, but very informative, stuff regarding Internet trolls. Through the laughter, one major point kept coming through: Ignore suspected troll posts and PMs. That's pretty much what I have been doing from the first day I came to this forum, and it has served me well. I'm sure I have witnessed some valuable assets, in the form of former Katie-ites, get cleverly subverted by troll tactics, much to the loss of this thread. I have personally been PMed once, by a suspicious character, and employed the wisdom of non-communication. Silence has served me well, in cases such as this.

Garden of Even:

Welcome. As a former believer in the crap of Byron Katie, I thank you for your courage in posting on this thread. You have said that you will, but be very careful regarding direct communication to you. That applies to Private Messages or posts on this or other threads you may be posting on. I would say that it may be helpful to read the information on the links that corboy just posted.

qd

Below is a verbatim PM message, that I received from a person who had one post on this entire forum, and that being about a year before, on a totally different thread. Note that he/she claims to have read this forum, but ignores the fact that there is plenty of first hand information and experience on this thread, regarding BKI. I am posting it on the recommendation of another person from this forum, so that it can be picked apart by anyone who sees anything else amiss.

qd


"I have been reading about Byron Katie after discovering The Work recently. I have tried it and it seems simple and unthreatening. I found this forum and am trying to understand what negative effects people have had from doing the work. There were some mentions of people feeling detached, and lots of discussion of manipulative techniques, and several "I heard of someone who gave $$" but no first-hand accounts of people's actual bad experiences. Did you find yourself having urges to give BKI money, or stuff like that? Did you feel like you were becoming dependent on her? What triggered your decision to unsubscribe from her newsletter? What should I be on the lookout for?"

Hi all,

I have posted the "release of liability", but I guess it hasnt been approved by moderator yet?

Writing it I remembered how "The School began" and why I was confused from the very begining.

I thought I had signed up for course with aprox. 30-35 participants. When I signed up there was no information about how many participants there would be. And I had imagined it would be intimate and with a lot of individual talking to Byron Katie.

After signing in (and getting our 'goodie-bags', argh..hate that word) and settlling in our rooms, the school begins with a rose cerimony. All participants recieves a red rose with a note on saying "Welcome to The School of Wonderful, Wonderful You. -kt" (initial love-bomb?) We were around 200 participants.

I will follow this thread and see if my posts turn up.

GoE

Based on what I read on the Craigslist.org parenting forum and stray copies of Working Mother* magazine that turn up in my dentists' office,
'goodie bags' are what are given out to young children when they arrive at kid's parties.

IMO, it all sounds very infantalizing--tying in with Anticults remarks about 'come into my parlour'--the children's rhyme.

Ish.

It is a very powerful thing to instill childish emotions and regression in those with adult bodies--and who retain access to adult goodies--in the form of credit cards.

---

*PS A mini rant: We have a long way to go, in that there is no magazine entitled Working Father. And the Working Mom magazines not only have advice about taking care of the kids and how to hang onto one's rights at work, but additional tips about how to look sexy and get the 'baby weight off.'

Grr...

Lemme tell you, if you ask real life women what turns them on, its the fantasy of getting a performance bonus in the form of a one or two day vacation--with pay.

That, my friends is sexy.

The other turn on would be a guy who picks up laundry and does the dishes without being told, and who fully backs Mom up when the kids whine for shit food or try to delay being put to bed.

The really sexy thing would be a husband getting the kids in line so that Mom actually gets 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep.

Getting a good paycheck, respect at home, and 7-8 hrs sleep is the best foreplay there is.

An end to suffering!

If every woman got those, BK would lose most of her clientele.

That's what real feminism is--making respect between the genders, and a fair days pay for a fair day's work for both genders the sexiest topics there are.

Fake feminism is when women covertly *F* other women over, using the marketing strategies fine tuned by the male capitalist establishment and tarting these up with satin, lace and roses and goodie bags.

And doing this to women by speaking Girl Pal language while getting you to sign disclaimer forms that no real girl friend would push at you.

Friends dont make friends sign disclaimer forms.

And Jesus didnt make his disciples do that either. Remember, Jesus took the rap, himself, and his disciples were free to chicken out and run away.

Jesus (literally) got nailed. He didnt tell the authorities, 'John made me do it, bust him'.

To my mind, that's the best proof there is that according to the extent canonical narratives, Jesus didnt do mind control on his followers.

What happened after he left the operation in human hands is different matter...

Some excellent points there, corboy; summed up particularly by the last one, for me. The unspeakable, despicable, inhumane and very UN-Christian acts, that have been done by "The Churches" (run by their sexually uptight, male-dominated hierarchy) over the centuries, are pretty well documented. I can barely be civil when I speak of it. Carl Sagan , in his book The Demon Haunted World, recounts a lot of those stories better than I can, anyway. The point is, these people can be very dangerous--in fact, deadly--and all the time saying that God is on their side. Throw in people like Katie, with their 'new' brand of 'religion', and it's a treacherous world, indeed.

I appreciate Rick Ross for creating this forum, where we can discuss these issues with anonymity and safety, and where we kind of watch out for one another. I have precious few friends or acquaintances that I could be this blunt with, in person.

qd

Another thought:

What Garden mentioned...giving roses to each arriving participant a

"After signing in (and getting our 'goodie-bags', argh..hate that word) and settlling in our rooms, the school begins with a rose cerimony. All participants recieves a red rose with a note on saying "Welcome to The School of Wonderful, Wonderful You. -kt" (initial love-bomb?) We were around 200 participants. "

This is a very mixed message.

Goodie bags give an infantalizing message -- and thats what you were given as you arrived at the hotel.

Then, going to the school room--you are each given a red rose with a 'School of Wonderful, Wonderful You.'

Red roses are customarily given by a fellow who is courting you, wooing you, romancing you. That kind of gooey soppy message is usually given only when a love affair is well, well underway.

So...what a combo: goodie bags as if you're little kids arriving at a children's party and then given the sort of red rose and gooey love note customary for adult, sexualized romance.

First, you're infantalized, then you're targeted for adult sexualized romance messaging.

Icky...very icky...

Hi GoE:

a tip is to make sure you save each post before you post it, as sometimes posts don't make it through due to a error, etc. So hopefully if the BK waiver doesn't turn up, then you can easily repost it?
It will be fascinating to compare that waiver with the goodie-bag and red rose.

The GOODIE BAG thing is what you guys have said. Its also one more thing.

RECIPROCITY.
In social influence, you GIVE someone something, and that makes them want to give back. (like later, hand you their wedding ring, for example).
So the goodie bag seems like a "gift" when of course, you have paid for it! You also paid for the rose with your fee.
Not only that, it infantilizes the adults, and regresses them like they are going to a 6 year old's birthday party with their "school-mates".

This is not an accident, its called AGE REGRESSION in hypnosis. Anyone can look it up, its one of the most basic techniques.

Then of course, you get a red rose, which as mentioned is a romantic symbol you usually give to a lover, that starts mixing in the Love-Bomb as well, when it is tied to a little flattery love note as well.
Red roses and GENERIC MASS PRODUCED flattery love notes and goodie bags, and you have not even sat down yet.

So even before you have sat down, you have been hit with up to 10 LGAT techniques, at least. (starting late is a technique, signing the release of liability is a technique, etc).
Byron Katie is bombarding you with her stuff from the second you walk in there.

People are getting clobbered with dozens, and even a hundred LGAT type techniques in The School For The Work.

Lets get that "release of liability" in the thread if possible. People have a right to read that when they are away from the seminar environment, and can think clearly.

And also too, if you're staying at a pre-designated hotel as part of the deal, you're in a controlled environment where you can be observed and monitored even outside of the indoctrination chamber.

This is radical.

For according to our other correspondants, when doing Landmark Education, people at least could go to their own homes at night. They often ran short on sleep, due to the assigned homework, but at least could return to their own homes..or at least to a hotel of their own choosing.

But if all the BK subjects have to stay at a pre selected hotel or house, then the input is 24-7.

You have no way to know whether some one in the BK set up is keeping an eye on you and your body language when youre at meals, griping to someone.

Pray tell us...did you have your own room or did you have to bunk with other people. If so..some of them may have been planted to report on you to HQ.

Did you have your own bathroom, or did you have to share that, too?